.NET for Beginners (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#71

Post by imgabe » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

I'm currently trying to write a windows app and coming from web development (Python/Django and React) it is bewildering.

Part of the problem is with web development, complicated as it is, the tutorials at least get you to a complete, working example. The windows tutorials seem to be very piecemeal where you start with a mostly complete app and fill in a couple things, but never get the whole picture.

And like in your first link, click on "Desktop". Ok, I want to make a desktop app. Now there are four options WPF, WinForms, UWP and Xamarin. Ok...Why are there four options? What are the differences? Are one or more of them about to be deprecated? What do I need to consider in order to choose one over the others?

I could go on. The windows developer website did point to some helpful C# tutorials and the language is actually pretty nice to work with, but figuring out how to do basic things like -- how do I store state in the application, has been very confusing.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#72

Post by mikewarot » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:14 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #71

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

I'm currently trying to write a windows app and coming from web development (Python/Django and React) it is bewildering. Part of the problem is with web development, complicated as it is, the tutorials at least get you to a complete, working example. The windows tutorials seem to be very piecemeal where you start with a mostly complete app and fill in a couple things, but never get the whole picture. And like in your…

I have the opposite problem. On a PC, you can always store data, the graphics display exactly how you want, the feedback is instant, and you always know the state of things. You don't ever get disconnected from the user, nor have more than one at a time.

My favorite platform is Lazarus/Free Pascal. The documentation is a bit sketchy, but the IDE and the applications it outputs seem solid. I'd prefer Delphi, but they priced themselves out of my world 20 years ago.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#73

Post by void_mint » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:20 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #43

tracker1 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, where do you start in Learning C#? What do I have to install? What should I install? Even those are complex questions with a few answers. I started with C# two decades ago with the command line compiler and a very large book. There was really only a single option, and since I didn't have MSDN access, no beta VS for me. Today, I would suggest that a developer start with .Net 5 and VS Code, with the extension ins…

Have you tried the dotnet site: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/ It explains everything, including how to get started for every scenario, and answers to every question in all of your comments here.

If the argument being made is ".NET isn't a language", and the response is "okay, then how do I install C#?" Linking the dotnet website probably doesn't advance the idea that C# and .NET aren't tied together.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#74

Post by munchbunny » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:20 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #71

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

I'm currently trying to write a windows app and coming from web development (Python/Django and React) it is bewildering. Part of the problem is with web development, complicated as it is, the tutorials at least get you to a complete, working example. The windows tutorials seem to be very piecemeal where you start with a mostly complete app and fill in a couple things, but never get the whole picture. And like in your…

> how do I store state in the application

I can’t speak for all of the challenges you might be dealing with, but this one in particular seems like something specific to native development. You have a wealth of options, and at the same time because of that fact there is are fewer defaults compared to web dev and you have to do more work to make the decision. Personally I default to two options unless performance requires otherwise: SQLite or JSON stored in files.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#75

Post by sedatk » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:20 AM UTC

DylanDmitri wrote: post #5

Like other design-by committee projects C# has considerable sprawl. As a result, it's overwhelming and confusing for brand new programmers to start writing hobby projects in. But C# is beginner friendly in that it's easy for inexperienced programmers to contribute business value to existing codebases. The everything-in-one ecosystem (IDE + autocomplete + database + deployment + source control + package management) re…

> Like other design-by committee projects C# has considerable sprawl.

Despite having gained some weight over the years, I still wouldn't call Anders Hejlsberg a committee.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#76

Post by logbiscuitswave » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:12 AM UTC

Oh wow did this title ever bury the lede, but what a great article. As a long time C# programmer very familiar with the .NET stack I definitely share and sympathize with many of the OP’s frustrations. I’ve been working in this world since .NET Framework 1.0 betas and I can’t keep track of all the developments. It’s exhausting.

Aside from hobby projects I’ve basically not given much thought to .NET Core because it’s such a moving target - and it’s a shame. In so many ways it’s far superior to the moribund .NET Framework - especially in terms of speed and memory use.

But there’s also many places in Core where there’s parity lacking with Framework, and migrating code can be a confusing and confounding experience. This is a place where things needed to be easy and they aren’t - and it doesn’t help that it’s so hard to figure out the difference between .NET Framework/Core/Standard/5 with UWP, WinRT, etc further confusing things.

Back in 2004 Joel Spolsky wrote the great article “How Microsoft Lost the API War” (https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...) and now some 17 years later it feels like little has changed. Some of the technology stacks may be different now but the frustrations are largely the same. It’s still the “MSDN Magazine camp” (or whatever today’s named equivalent would be) versus the “Raymond Chen camp”.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#77

Post by turtlebits » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:14 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

I've tried to get started with F# on Mac twice, once a few months ago, and 18 months before that. Could not get it working. When the official getting started guides don't work, that is a very bad sign. I will be staying away.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#78

Post by pianoben » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:23 AM UTC

turtlebits wrote: post #77

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

I've tried to get started with F# on Mac twice, once a few months ago, and 18 months before that. Could not get it working. When the official getting started guides don't work, that is a very bad sign. I will be staying away.

It's regrettable, but F# has never seen anything like the kind of support C# and VB.NET have. It was and remains something of a "hobby" product, albeit one that sees lots of use in some specialized industries.

Although F#-the-language is top-notch, the surrounding bits - editor experience, documentation, libraries, tooling - just don't get the investment they need to be on par with the sibling languages.

What I mean to say is, don't judge .NET just by your experience with F#. C# is the happy path.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#79

Post by wvenable » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:40 AM UTC

setr wrote: post #65

wvenable wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think C# is hard for beginners. I monitor the Git repository of our Infrastructure Team and they develop small tools in C#.NET really easily. None of them would claim to be programmers or have any formal training as such. The tools they make are simple but sophisticated in what they accomplish and interact with. The article makes a good point but 90% of is irrelevant to a beginner. Open Visual Studio, pick yo…

The biggest issue I had picking up C# over the last year (and still have) is figuring out the MS ecosystem. There’s three different frameworks for everything, all of which are either incomplete or to be deprecated. Windows-only desktop app is the latest to confound me, let alone cross platform. The .NET variants confused the hell out of me for the longest time until I just sat on Wikipedia and read the whole damn his…

The thing about .NET is that while it is confusing at the moment, and the naming isn't great, it's not a bunch of truly different technology. Microsoft is replacing their legacy Windows-only framework with a new cross platform framework with the end-goal being nearly fully backwards compatible. There is slightly more to it than that but that's the basic gist of it.

Heck, they've even brought over Winforms -- that technology is over 19 years old! So I honestly think using the term deprecated is too strong. They've done the right thing and continued to maintain multiple branches .NET until the newest version is fully finished and can reasonably replace the old one.

As I said in another comment, the framework you choose doesn't even matter that much. You're unlikely to even a notice a difference and changing from one to another is often as easily as selecting it from a drop-down (or editing a file) and recompiling.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#80

Post by paranoidrobot » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

turtlebits wrote: post #77

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

I've tried to get started with F# on Mac twice, once a few months ago, and 18 months before that. Could not get it working. When the official getting started guides don't work, that is a very bad sign. I will be staying away.

When people talk about .NET, they're mostly always talking about C#.

Sure, there's a bunch of other languages that run on the CLR - but for the most part, the broadest, most well tested, path is doing stuff in C#.