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Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

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Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#541
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most farmers can't make ends meet because food is a commodity, because it benefits from economies of scale, and because their competition is highly optimized mega-farms with large warchests. Without the machines and chemical inputs, roughly half of the world's population would starve in a few months. They significantly increase yields, and reduce required labour, at the cost of... Problems that future people will…

Certain cultivars of fruits and vegetables are commodities; there are others that aren't, until the market for them grows beyond a certain size. Look at the price history for Honeycrisp apples for an example. Farmers choose to grow commodity cultivars because they're easier to sell in standardized markets. Of course, you could also sell in un-standardized markets, which is how a lot of producers pay their bills witho…

I'm well aware of all this, my parents run a small profitable hobby farm selling $25 chickens and eggs for $8/dozen to wealthy patrons. A friend of mine does microgreens in her back yard for local restaurants in a small resort town. Four of my great-grandparents were kolhoz farmers.

It doesn't scale, though, and you're going to get bread riots if you tried to.

> If the places people lived were integrated with diversified, guilded orchard silvopasture, there would be a surplus of food without machines or pesticides, those people would just have to go pick it themselves.

Nobody has the time and energy to go do that and pay their bills. Farm work is really friggin' hard.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're seeing negativity because it's getting harder and harder to deny that this "dream" involves the locals getting screwed when tech monopoly money turns their local economy upside down. Sure the guy who had the foresight to start a brewery wins but everyone else loses. You know what the end game of this looks like? It looks like Vail CO, Cape Cod MA, coastal Long Island and CT, the Hamptons, wealthy retirement ar…

Any small town has two problems: * influx of tourism and remote owners -> rising prices * lack of tourism or property interest -> slow death I am not sure what would be the right public policy to balance the two extremes. Maybe Hawaii has the right idea with tiered property taxation - the longer you reside there, the lower your property tax becomes?

Tiered property taxation hasn't solved the the problems OP has described for Oahu; or Hawaii as a whole for that matter.

For example, Local NIMBYist restrictions, mostly those individuals that have resided there for a long time (and have the lower property tax rate you describe), have resulted in areas immediately adjacent to 40-story downtown developments being zoned exclusively for single-family homes; see Kaimuki, Upper Tantalus, Manoa, Punchbowl (to an extent), etc. Consequently, even homes built over 80 yrs ago with only ~1,300 sqft sell for about $1.1 million; https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1001-Belser-St-Honolulu-H....

The majority of people employed in hospitality and trades that support the local tourist economy (electricians, masons, carpenters, etc.) are increasingly driven to the west side; where commutes to the city can easily be 1-2 hours normally (pre-COVID). This eventually becomes such a stressor that many of the people working these skilled trades leave for the mainland.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're seeing negativity because it's getting harder and harder to deny that this "dream" involves the locals getting screwed when tech monopoly money turns their local economy upside down. Sure the guy who had the foresight to start a brewery wins but everyone else loses. You know what the end game of this looks like? It looks like Vail CO, Cape Cod MA, coastal Long Island and CT, the Hamptons, wealthy retirement ar…

Last year I moved from a top 3 city to a small mountain town in Colorado. In my experience, your hostility is extremely common in small towns that have big seasonal influxes. I continue to be amazed by the overt disdain long-time locals have for second home owners and relatively newer full-time residents. The one constant is: "Everything was great until shortly after I relocated here and you people moved in." A week…

I don’t think there’s a convincing argument to be made for complaining about new full-time residents. For second homes and Airbnb’s however, I see a lot of potential for degradation that comes from having transient community members of that aren’t fully vested in the well-being of the local social & economic landscape. I think that measures such as additional taxation on secondary homes or blocking municipal voting rights of people who don’t live their for at least half the year, would do a lot to blunt the downsides of outside interest. But afaik I haven’t seen such things being put forward.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#544

I heard all these places, especially Denver and the area around it, are swarmed with "outdoors bros" etc from Cali and the east coast. Overcrowded. Traffic jams to go out to the mountains every weekend. Cultural homogenization. Is that true, or overblown?

So, I moved to Denver around 3 years ago. There are a lot of "Outdoor Bros" or whatever you want to call them (I would probably get labeled like that by others).

The traffic jams on weekends are real, but avoidable if you know when and where to go. There are plenty of things to do that will avoid the crowds people complain about. It's not that hard, but the popular stuff everyone knows about are always packed.

Cultural homogenization is really dependent on who you talk to and who they hang out with. I have tons of friends that complain about this here, but from what I observe they don't try to hang out with people that are much different than them. There is diversity here (could be improved for sure), but you need to make an effort to seek it out.

I think from a surface level glance those things are true, but if you want to get more out of what the area has to offer and avoid the pitfalls, it's not that hard although takes some effort.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#545
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a recurring theme. People spend decades taming and beautifying a place. Then people with no respect or appreciation come and love all the "nature" and turn the place into exactly what they were trying to leave behind. It's incredibly narcissistic and selfish to believe that "the locals" are only there as a hindrance to you . Would you roll up to a random village in Thailand and just start changing things, and ex…

> Taming and beautifying What you call development in step 1... > narcissist and selfish What you call development in step 2. They're both development and urbanization. > only there as a hindrance to you. This seems like a projection. You don't seem to consider "them" as having any right to even exist. Indeed, in the next sentence you compare migrating within the US to migrating outside of it, making the xenophobia e…

They're both development and urbanization.

No, turning a wilderness into viable farmland is not urbanization. There's putting in the time and work to make what you want from scratch, and then there's seeing something nice that someone else made and screaming "mine!"

compare migrating within the US to migrating outside of it, making the xenophobia even more clear.

Putting a false label on something doesn't make the thing become what you label it. The US is not meant to be an open season playground for the rich and the careless.

You don't seem to consider "them" as having any right to even exist.

This sentence seems to perfectly describe the perspective of those who see a small town and want to appropriate it and make it theirs. As someone who has lived in everything from a hometown of a few thousand up to San Francisco, and a variety of suburbs and mid-tier cities in between, it's pretty tiring to see people treating the world like their own giant Disneyland, and all the people who live in it like Castmembers on display for their amusement.

Striving to minimize disruption and maximize cohesion when moving into a new town or building a new development would make for a much better world than the conquistador-style takeover that actually happens in a lot of places.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#546
post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t, you can’t build your way out of these kinds of problems, not without some sort of government intervention (like Singapore as mentioned before).

Yes, you can. Tokyo and Houston are perfect counterexamples. Obviously government is required for the planning and zoning reform aspects but the idea that any solution to housing price issues isn't building more is non-sensical. Singapore's solution is just building HBDs!

Houston is definitely a great example of how you can’t just build blindly and not expect your traffic and quality of life to suck. But to its credit, Houston creates an equilibrium of being just pleasant and unpleasant enough to not be great but not horrible place to live.

Tokyo housing is expensive for its size. You can just get small apartments there that are affordable. Also, Japanese housing depreciates, which takes away a lot of speculative pressure.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Park City for a decade, and it's the same. If you live your life being mad at the traffic during the Sundance Festival and Christmas vacation skiiers, you're just an old man yelling at clouds. That tourist money pays for so many of the amenities that make our town a nice place to live during the rest of the year. Lighten up!

I typically agree but there are some places where this topic is a bit more nuanced and controversial - Hawaii for instance. We love visiting the islands but learned a while back that large parts of the indigenous population see the US as an occupying entity and not their country. While heavily relying on the tourist income, this creates a challenging relationship between the locals and visitors (not to mention the di…

First, thank you for at least taking the time to try and understand how the history of Hawaii has shaped many of the issues facing Hawaii today. Second, I will add that I was not born in Hawaii but lived there for several years and have learned a lot about it myself from my wife, who was born and raised there and did research into some of these issues as a graduate student.

> We love visiting the islands but learned a while back that large parts of the indigenous population see the US as an occupying entity and not their country. While heavily relying on the tourist income, this creates a challenging relationship between the locals and visitors (not to mention the disrespect some tourists show to the local land and culture).

Yes, there is a contingent of the Native Hawaiian population that is making the case for sovereignty. Again, I do not have skin in the game, nor am I an expert in these matters. However, it is acknowledged by the U.S. itself that the sovereignty of the Kingdom of Hawaii was undermined through force and not by any mutual treaty or agreement; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_King....

However, your statement seems to be conflating "locals" with Native Hawaiians, which is incorrect (but not uncommon among many Americans). The majority of the current local population are descendants not of Native Hawaiians but of other laborers that were brought to the Hawaiian islands by U.S. persons-owned sugar plantations during the 19th century, "Few natives were willing to work on the sugar plantations and so recruiters fanned out across Asia and Europe. As a result, between 1850 and 1900 some 200,000 contract laborers from China, Japan, the Philippines, Portugal and elsewhere came to Hawaiʻi under fixed term contracts (typically for five years). Most returned home on schedule, but large numbers stayed permanently. By 1908 about 180,000 Japanese workers had arrived. No more were allowed in, but 54,000 remained permanently." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Kingdom#Economic,_soc...]. Considering that the current population of all eight populated islands is only around 1,415,872, you can do some rough math based on average population growth from those workers to get an idea of how much the influx of these laborers changed the demographics of Hawaii.

> "This issue was made very apparent during a Pearl Harbor tour when the bus driver described how many Hawaiians actually identified more closely with Japan than America during WW2 (and still do to this day)."

I will not speak for this bus driver's opinions, but I would encourage you, if you get another chance, to take a look at the memorial plaque of civilians who died during the attacks on Pearl Harbor an observe how many names were of Hawaiians (locals, not native Hawaiians) of Japanese descent; although these individuals were also Japanese-Americans, Hawaii was only a territory at this point and did not become a state until 1959.

My point here being that who the Japanese-Americans in Hawaii "actually identified more closely" with at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor is complicated. Considering that: 1. Hawaii was not a state at that time 2. Many Japanese (and Chinese/Filipino/etc.) were residents of Hawaii prior to it becoming a U.S. territory 3. The government sanctioned xenophobia/racism at the time.

Another important data point to keep in mind on this subject was the service of the 442nd regiment during WWII itself; which to this day is the most decorated unit of its size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(Unite.... Meanwhile while they were fighting on behalf of the U.S., many of their relatives and family in Hawaii faced outright discrimination based on their descent and appearance (not to mention any relatives they had in California who were straight up imprisoned simply because they were of Japanese descent).

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I guess you could say that its the contents of skyscrapers that are harmful to wildlife: humans. Lots of traffic (whether car, bicycle, foot, alpine touring skiing, etc) causes the wildlife herds to be pushed further away from where they originally may have inhabited.

With density you can afford transit which would reduce traffic. See Japan for an example. Most people take the train or bus to the ski area. There’s barely anyone in the parking lot.

Interesting. Meanwhile, some ski areas in the US have transit to take people across the parking lots to the resort entrance.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure there is economic research showing that movement actually decreases inequality.

Source please. I can see how increased demand for property in an area would increase inequality but not the reverse. When the cost of living rises but you're not invested in the parts of the market which gain from higher valuation, you're going to lose ground until either you can't compete or you buy in. And if you can buy in, great. But I suspect few locals have the capital or professional skills to ante up.

Geographic mobility is a key term it seems

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v80n2/v80n2p1.html

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/labor-mob...

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If its ok for a young person to leave their hometown, move to a city and call it home to make a better life without thinking about the locals, then it must be ok for a person with a small family living in a city to move to a smaller town and call it home to make a better life for his/her family. The reason that theses two scenarios are not equivalent is so obvious I'm wondering whether or not I'm misinterpreting it.

For those of us to whom it is not obvious, would you explain?

Think of it like this. You can throw a lot of different juices and alcohols into the punch bowl before it becomes apparent that something is different. Pour a half shot of vodka into a glass of wine and the difference is immediate and off putting. There is very little tolerance for change in a glass of wine.

The cultures of small towns really don't have much elasticity nor are they expected to have it. People don't like change and normally no one except other small town people come in.

Cities are generally something that people rotate through in huge numbers. Cities are always changing while still keeping some on the side as a homage to their identity. For the most part though they are always in flux by nature. NYC is not the same as it was 10 years ago. ________ NY, largely the same for the past 200 years is suddenly changing radically in the tech WFA renaissance. There is no doubt in my mind the council will be hi-jacked if it hasn't already - some of those ordinances are "a little out of touch for modern living".

Anyway, before I rant too much, my point is that comparing the elasticity of a city's culture to the rigid and fragile cultures of small towns is ridiculous.

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