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Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

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Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#141

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

boringg wrote: post #138
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not true. Nortel collapsed due to its own terrible management, including a massive accounting scandal. Years later, a former Nortel exec tried to pin the blame on Chinese hackers.

Nortel collapse has many reasons that I am not debating. The stealing of IP and then undercutting the bids of Nortel with the same tech but cheaper is where Huawei got their break. My point is if thats a starting point as a company what kind of culture is breed from it and what does that say about the current situation

> The stealing of IP and then undercutting the bids of Nortel with the same tech but cheaper is where Huawei got their break.

There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims here. First of all, the stealing of IP. Next, that this is how Huawei got their break.

As far as I understand it, Huawei grew by developing cheap telephone switches in the 1980s and early 1990s, long before it had anything to do with Nortel. Huawei focused on relatively simple components that it could manufacture more cheaply than Western competitors, and it gained market share inside China. It only moved up the value chain as its revenue increased and it had more ability to spend on R&D. By the time Huawei was beginning to move into more advanced markets, Nortel was already a basket case.

The strange thing to me is that all these claims that Huawei made it because they supposedly stole from Nortel seem to have appeared in the 2010s, long after Nortel's demise, and they're incredibly vague. By contrast, analyses of Huawei's early history that I've seen barely mention Nortel: [1].

1. https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legac...

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#142

Post by boringg »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #141
boringg wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nortel collapse has many reasons that I am not debating. The stealing of IP and then undercutting the bids of Nortel with the same tech but cheaper is where Huawei got their break. My point is if thats a starting point as a company what kind of culture is breed from it and what does that say about the current situation

> The stealing of IP and then undercutting the bids of Nortel with the same tech but cheaper is where Huawei got their break. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims here. First of all, the stealing of IP. Next, that this is how Huawei got their break. As far as I understand it, Huawei grew by developing cheap telephone switches in the 1980s and early 1990s, long before it had anything to do with Nortel. Huawei foc…

I think this article sums it up effectively. Economic espionage on the behalf of state funding the company and corporate espionage state sponsored hacking of Nortel from 2000 to 2009 and then hiring 20 scientists from Nortel. My argument isn't about Nortel its about the behavior of Huawei and why it isn't a trusted company.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/did-a-chinese-hack-kill-canada-s...

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#143

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

boringg wrote: post #142
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stealing of IP and then undercutting the bids of Nortel with the same tech but cheaper is where Huawei got their break. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims here. First of all, the stealing of IP. Next, that this is how Huawei got their break. As far as I understand it, Huawei grew by developing cheap telephone switches in the 1980s and early 1990s, long before it had anything to do with Nortel. Huawei foc…

I think this article sums it up effectively. Economic espionage on the behalf of state funding the company and corporate espionage state sponsored hacking of Nortel from 2000 to 2009 and then hiring 20 scientists from Nortel. My argument isn't about Nortel its about the behavior of Huawei and why it isn't a trusted company. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/did-a-chinese-hack-kill-canada-s...

Poaching employees from a competitor is not economic espionage. It's extremely common.

And then here's the key line:

> No one knows who managed to hack Nortel or where that data went in China.

This is all so vague, whereas the reasons for Huawei's growth and Nortel's demise are so much more concrete. For Huawei, the ability to capture a sizeable chunk of the market in China for cheap telephone switches, aided by its lower labor costs, better knowledge of the local market, and some level of protectionism. For Nortel, serious mismanagement and a financial scandal.

The thesis of the article, that economic espionage in the 2000s did in Nortel, is not plausible. It just looks like blame-shifting from a former Nortel employee, which Bloomberg decided to trumpet during a time (2000) when the US government was waging was a major anti-Huawei campaign.

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#144

Post by dang »

mk81 wrote: post #140
dang wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

'The top comment is an inaccurate claim of "nothing to see here", but don't insinuate anything.'

The way to respond to inaccurate claims is with accurate information. You can do that without insinuating.

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#145

Post by boringg »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #143
boringg wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this article sums it up effectively. Economic espionage on the behalf of state funding the company and corporate espionage state sponsored hacking of Nortel from 2000 to 2009 and then hiring 20 scientists from Nortel. My argument isn't about Nortel its about the behavior of Huawei and why it isn't a trusted company. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/did-a-chinese-hack-kill-canada-s...

Poaching employees from a competitor is not economic espionage. It's extremely common. And then here's the key line: > No one knows who managed to hack Nortel or where that data went in China. This is all so vague, whereas the reasons for Huawei's growth and Nortel's demise are so much more concrete. For Huawei, the ability to capture a sizeable chunk of the market in China for cheap telephone switches, aided by its…

Probably all of our point are true to a point and all contribute. Again I’m not arguing about nortels downfall (which you seem to be focused on maybe because that is a lot easier to discuss than huaweis trustworthiness), I’m pointing to why Huawei is not a trusted company. If you can convince me of it’s trustworthiness please do - otherwise I will rely on the multiple sources of material that seem to point to its connections to the Chinese government.

And yes most state sponsored hacks are difficult to figure out exactly the source and end use of the data. Look at what’s happening right now with the solar winds back for instance.

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#146

Post by emodendroket »

boringg wrote: post #145
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poaching employees from a competitor is not economic espionage. It's extremely common. And then here's the key line: > No one knows who managed to hack Nortel or where that data went in China. This is all so vague, whereas the reasons for Huawei's growth and Nortel's demise are so much more concrete. For Huawei, the ability to capture a sizeable chunk of the market in China for cheap telephone switches, aided by its…

Probably all of our point are true to a point and all contribute. Again I’m not arguing about nortels downfall (which you seem to be focused on maybe because that is a lot easier to discuss than huaweis trustworthiness), I’m pointing to why Huawei is not a trusted company. If you can convince me of it’s trustworthiness please do - otherwise I will rely on the multiple sources of material that seem to point to its con…

> otherwise I will rely on the multiple sources of material that seem to point to its connections to the Chinese government

Is the expectation that businesses are supposed to simply ignore the authority of the sovereign states they operate in? There seems to be a bit of circular logic going on here.

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#147

Post by boringg »

emodendroket wrote: post #146
boringg wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably all of our point are true to a point and all contribute. Again I’m not arguing about nortels downfall (which you seem to be focused on maybe because that is a lot easier to discuss than huaweis trustworthiness), I’m pointing to why Huawei is not a trusted company. If you can convince me of it’s trustworthiness please do - otherwise I will rely on the multiple sources of material that seem to point to its con…

> otherwise I will rely on the multiple sources of material that seem to point to its connections to the Chinese government Is the expectation that businesses are supposed to simply ignore the authority of the sovereign states they operate in? There seems to be a bit of circular logic going on here.

Agreed. You’ve proven my point. The trustworthiness of Huawei is interwoven with their government which has proven to be untrustworthy and one which I wouldn’t want to build critical intelligence infrastructure upon.

Re: Huawei was able to eavesdrop on Dutch mobile network KPN: Report

#148

Post by ethbr0 »

hda2 wrote: post #89
tpmx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're living now, not in the 1800s. That may be historically interesting, but not that much interesting beyond that. It's not about who's "good" and who's "evil", now or then.

I think GP's implied point about copying ideas still stands. Like the US in the 1800s, they're not just making clones. They're making better ones. They're innovating. Taking good ideas and improving them is - and will always be - the fundamental corner stone of human development. That's why "ripping off" more advanced competitors worked out well for the US when they did it, it worked out well for Japan when they did…

This is one of the best comments I think I've ever read on HN. Concise, summarizing a lot of things, and saying it well (much better than I could!). Thanks!
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