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Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

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Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#61
post #31
post #9

Even though we use Grafana only internally and there would be no problem with AGPLv3 in theory I see big meetings with legal coming up which might result in us not being able to use it anymore. I could image that its the same with other corporations. In the end that might hurt the popularity of Grafana quite a lot.

I think that's misunderstanding of AGPL. For internal use, AGPL does not require to share the proprietary part. If a company develop an proprietary UI and use Loki as backend, this is not serving Loki directly to customer, so that does not require company to release their code. It is similar to GPL. Dynamic linking to a GPL software does not require the developer releasing their code. Only provider serving Loki insta…

I think this is a misunderstanding of how vague the AGPL actually is.

The key clause is "your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version."

Would putting AGPL software behind a reverse proxy change the fact that you're a user interacting with it remotely? What about a reverse proxy that changes/adds some headers? What about a really smart reverse proxy that reformats some of the output or repackages it or mixes it with things from other data sources? Is that materially different from the API that powers the "proprietary UI" you're describing?

And say you're pretty confident that you're on the right side of things. Can you point to any case law where courts have established precedent about what "interacting with it remotely" means in this context? No? Then to be on the safe side, you'll probably need to maintain a source code repository for your Corresponding Source, remember to update it every time you update a minor version of the service internally, and maintain an info screen in your product with "prominent" links to that source code repository, which likely means it needs sign off from a product team if not a legal team as well. All things that add expense and barriers to entry.

I think the AGPL is great for services like Grafana's UI itself, where there's likely to be a "human gap" between the software and anyone outside your organization. But things like Loki that are designed to power other proprietary systems that may well be touched by end users through a computer network, where Loki's output may have influence or side effects on the output the user sees? I don't think it's nearly as clear what liability that entails.

(Obligatory: Not a lawyer, the above is not legal advice.)

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#62
RIP grafana

^^ this is not a good contribution to HN, not much substance. (edit)

Many people who use Grafana will see this news and will stop planning on using Grafana and start planning on doing something else. That has nothing to do with Grafana, that is a common reaction to AGPL.

In theory, AGPL is fine under circumstances blahblahblah. In common practice in commercial settings (in my experience), GPL is poison and AGPL is radioactive poison.

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#63
post #9

Even though we use Grafana only internally and there would be no problem with AGPLv3 in theory I see big meetings with legal coming up which might result in us not being able to use it anymore. I could image that its the same with other corporations. In the end that might hurt the popularity of Grafana quite a lot.

In a large number of cases, this is not an issue at all. Just like we all use GPL-ed kernel and a ton of other stuff. There is also no problem with making AGPL-based services available to customers. The caveat is that when you modify AGPL-based code, you need to make the source of these modifications available, too. For some reason, this scares Amazon a lot. Developers know that and use AGPL when they don't want to b…

I don't get why Amazon should be scared by AGPL. I mean all of their services run on GPLed Linux, why should they be scared by a GPLed Grafana?Even if they had to open-source their Grafana contributions, they could do this in a way that they are worthless for potential competitors (e.g. if the contribution depends on a proprietary Amazon system)

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#65
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about just paying for a commercial licence to use it to meet your needs?

I have no Idea. Realistically its probably not the license cost but the one time and the perpetual operational overhead associated with the license that's going to be the problem.

That makes zero business sense. Your first post is about the one time and perpetual operational overhead associated with operating under the prior FOSS license (yes, you’re saying it’s the new license that’s a problem, but since the situation arose while operating under the prior conditions then implicitly those conditions carried this very overhead). Operating under any license carried an overhead, unless you simply choose to not read (or to read and ignore) the fine print.

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#66
post #31
post #9

Even though we use Grafana only internally and there would be no problem with AGPLv3 in theory I see big meetings with legal coming up which might result in us not being able to use it anymore. I could image that its the same with other corporations. In the end that might hurt the popularity of Grafana quite a lot.

I think that's misunderstanding of AGPL. For internal use, AGPL does not require to share the proprietary part. If a company develop an proprietary UI and use Loki as backend, this is not serving Loki directly to customer, so that does not require company to release their code. It is similar to GPL. Dynamic linking to a GPL software does not require the developer releasing their code. Only provider serving Loki insta…

> Dynamic linking to a GPL software does not require the developer releasing their code.

That's not true, you do have to release the code. There is no difference between statically or dynamically linking to a GPL library. Source: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLStaticVsDynamic

You may be thinking of the LGPL.

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#67
post #22
post #10

Hmm. Where does Grafana people stand on what constitutes a "derivative" work? Are my Grafana dashboards derivatives of Grafana, and must now be published? If I embed a Grafana dashboard in my application, is my application now a derivative of Grafana and must be released as AGPLv3?

The Q&A suggests that "unmodified" distributions are not an issue. But if I distribute dashboards, custom configurations, etc - is that a "modification" ?

nope, that wouldn't be a modification to the AGPL-licensed grafana. you are free to do that.

plus, dashboards and configuration are inherently ("source available"), so even if one were to consider them to be modifications (which they're not), you are already distributing them in source form ;-)

[note: am co-founder/ceo of grafana labs]

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#68

I remember when the AGPL was being talked about in around 2008 or so, and thinking it was ludicrous. Now I wonder if it's too lenient. AWS is just rebranding open source products and selling access for infinite markups while killing the open economy that created them. Maybe what we need is a 'no AWS' license, think Apache License but with a clause that says no corporation with more than $50B in revenue can resell it.

Is that not essentially what the Server Side Public License (SSPL) went for?

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#69
post #61
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's misunderstanding of AGPL. For internal use, AGPL does not require to share the proprietary part. If a company develop an proprietary UI and use Loki as backend, this is not serving Loki directly to customer, so that does not require company to release their code. It is similar to GPL. Dynamic linking to a GPL software does not require the developer releasing their code. Only provider serving Loki insta…

I think this is a misunderstanding of how vague the AGPL actually is. The key clause is "your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version." Would putting AGPL software behind a reverse proxy change the fact that you're a user interacting with it r…

I don't understand the point you're trying to make with the reverse proxy as it doesn't seem related to anything the parent wrote.

Re: Grafana, Loki, and Tempo will be relicensed to AGPLv3

#70
post #9

Even though we use Grafana only internally and there would be no problem with AGPLv3 in theory I see big meetings with legal coming up which might result in us not being able to use it anymore. I could image that its the same with other corporations. In the end that might hurt the popularity of Grafana quite a lot.

Cannot be helped - that's just fear of the unknown.

If legal is familiar with AGPL, like they are with GPL, BSD or Apache, they should see no issue. This change does not really affect anyone except for the very small number of people/companies that make their own changes to software and make this software available online to others.

If you aren't such a company and legal would still say you guys can't use e.g. Grafana anymore... the truth will be that it's some incompetent (or severely underhanded, where they can't do any research and err on the side of caution) legal department, failing at their jobs.

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