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The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

github.com

121–130 of 148 posts

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#121
This is a fun learning project, but I don't think it's really a browser except in name. The code seems to implement the behavior someone thinks a browser might have, not what the specs actually say.

Ex. https://github.com/danfragoso/thdwb/blob/655eac96e4faa141cb4...

That's not an html parser. It's just some code that regexes strings looking for brackets.

Projects like this are good ways to learn and have fun, but they're many years away from being a browser, even if we limit the scope to the specs of say 2012.

Also fwiw, if you're implementing a browser use the web platform tests instead of writing your own:

https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#122
post #33

How come entire operating systems are able to be developed on community-supported efforts (like Debian) but browsers can only be developed by monoliths like Google and Apple (and Mozilla, which has ~750 employees and makes most of its money from Google)?

Chrome is based on WebKit, which itself is descended from KHTML. That was essentially a little widget for formatting help pages in KDE and only had a handful of developers. In fact, it was chosen as the basis for WebKit because it was minimalistic clean code.

Blink (Chrome's renderer) is based on webkit. A browser has many components.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#123

It's great to see yet another attempt at writing a web browser --- and I say this as someone who has been (slowly) working on one myself. The browser is far from stable, spec-compliant, or even really useful, but, I'm slowly working on bringing more features and supporting more sites. When the specs are constantly churning in order to keep one gigantic company's browser an effective monopoly, maybe it isn't really th…

I feel ya. I'm refactoring my CSS parser the third time now, because I needed to support nested media queries (and therefore the logical condition "spec"). It's amazing how complex even CSS has gotten. And implementing HTML without the ISO SGML spec and the SGML handbook is close to impossible. So many edge cases, so much layouting overhead, and so much damned flow root types. Honestly in the beginning I thought "how…

This is exactly it. I looked at doing something like this, ok, I looked at doing this and decided early to forgo CSS because it's so very very complicated.

Truthfully, if my skillset had better matched the task I might have been lured into giving it a go. On another project I considered using CSS as a styling technology and got down to really understand it in detail. I then realized how good my 1,000 yard vision really is.

I can't speak to the forces which inevitably lead to decay but essentially, for some reason every technology tries to eat the world.

CSS is trying to eat the world and HTML5 is trying to eat the world and of course Javascript is famously trying to eat the world.

All these technologies (and here's the part where I see my post begin to fade to gray) are on their way to experiencing technology's version of societal collapse.

I use that analogy because it's so so apropo.

They are overwrought, overly complex systems yielding only marginally better results and being maintained at huge cost in terms of attention, brain power and collateral damage by everyone. The benefits accrue to a smaller and smaller number of people (FANG et. al) who do not have society's best interest at heart at all and are very far from the founding principals which inspired the original vision.

A simple scriptless HTML 1.0 browser minus the blink tag would deliver at least to me nearly 100% of the benefit I get from the web which can be characterized as "seeing what is happening, seeing what other people think, learning new stuff and downloading stuff".

I would love to start a (reactionary) movement away from the current web composed of a privacy-preserving HTML 1.0 browser capable of HTTPS and people dedicated to creating pages and resources for it. I don't know of any such "movement" .

If anyone is aware of anything like this do share.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#124
post #43

It's great to see yet another attempt at writing a web browser --- and I say this as someone who has been (slowly) working on one myself. The browser is far from stable, spec-compliant, or even really useful, but, I'm slowly working on bringing more features and supporting more sites. When the specs are constantly churning in order to keep one gigantic company's browser an effective monopoly, maybe it isn't really th…

The idea of "minimal browsers" is a popular one and there are thriving communities based on this idea: Gopher is a dead simple text-based protocol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol) Project Gemini is a slightly more powerful protocol for the small web: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ The tilde (~) community, which makes the small web social: https://tilde.club/ I recommend you have a look at James Tom…

Shameless plug for my minimal web browser: https://rhapsode.adrian.geek.nz/

A voice UX was surprisingly easy to implement (given a good platform to build on), newer standards just get in the way of the experience!

I'll tackle a visual one soonish...

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#125

Come on, everybody, this deserves a huge round of applause, for encouragement and for the effort. We need a lot more projects of this kind; we need some options for rebooting the browser scene from down below, however limited in scale and scope and functionality. I stick to my Firefox, crippled and bloated as it is these days, but I know full well that sooner or later it's going to fold, and I shall be stranded insid…

There's Dillo too, but unfortunately last time I checked neither of them were even as close to usable on most sites as Opera 9.x (which was already many years old at the time, but had been quite popular for a while before that.)

And furthermore, when are we getting open source Presto? I know Opera stopped developing it around 2013, but there's still probably plenty a FOSS browser could salvage.

(I hear the source is floating around somewhere, but without a free license it's (unfortunately) likely to attract problems.)

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#126
post #43

It's great to see yet another attempt at writing a web browser --- and I say this as someone who has been (slowly) working on one myself. The browser is far from stable, spec-compliant, or even really useful, but, I'm slowly working on bringing more features and supporting more sites. When the specs are constantly churning in order to keep one gigantic company's browser an effective monopoly, maybe it isn't really th…

The idea of "minimal browsers" is a popular one and there are thriving communities based on this idea: Gopher is a dead simple text-based protocol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol) Project Gemini is a slightly more powerful protocol for the small web: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ The tilde (~) community, which makes the small web social: https://tilde.club/ I recommend you have a look at James Tom…

Neither Gopher nor Gemini are remotely close to being a replacement for the web, as neither support anything close to rich text or media.

Gemini doesn't allow for embedding images in web pages - which makes it vastly inferior to the web for any kind of interesting documents.

Imagine reading a research paper where, in order to view figures and equations, you had to follow a link to a separate object. No font control. No two-column layout. No anchors to allow you to jump to sections of the document. No metadata to inform you of the authors.

Gemini and Gemtext actively inhibit learning and knowledge dissemination by obsessing over pure plain text, which is bad at those things.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#127
post #77
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the specs are constantly churning in order to keep one gigantic company's browser an effective monopoly, maybe it isn't really that important to follow them so closely... The notion breaks as soon as your users want to use youtube or gmail, which for some mysterious reason keep insisting on using all these useless "standards" even though they have no benefit to the user.

For YouTube, use youtube-dl or VLC (it's capable of playing YouTube videos directly). For gmail, use an IMAP+SMTP client of your liking, of which there's no shortage.

Or there's https://invidio.us/ !

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel ya. I'm refactoring my CSS parser the third time now, because I needed to support nested media queries (and therefore the logical condition "spec"). It's amazing how complex even CSS has gotten. And implementing HTML without the ISO SGML spec and the SGML handbook is close to impossible. So many edge cases, so much layouting overhead, and so much damned flow root types. Honestly in the beginning I thought "how…

This is exactly it. I looked at doing something like this, ok, I looked at doing this and decided early to forgo CSS because it's so very very complicated. Truthfully, if my skillset had better matched the task I might have been lured into giving it a go. On another project I considered using CSS as a styling technology and got down to really understand it in detail. I then realized how good my 1,000 yard vision real…

Agreed.

Except (half kidding but only half kidding here) augmented for things like cat videos; previous generations watched tv for entertainment, and for many people that has been partially or entirely replaced by the internet.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#129
If you ever decide to actually go somewhere with it, maybe a lightweight alternative of Electron might be a good path to take.

In particular a browser engine that allow the programmer to easily turn off things that are not used and take away from performance will probably be a real killer.

Good luck!

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#130

Love the opinionated swearing rant that is the sample website! (See screenshots at bottom). Yes, simple vanilla HTML is inherently responsive. And much of the modern web is rubbish.

Not only a rant, there is a whole opinoated swearing discussion!

[0]: http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/

[1]: http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/

[2a]: https://evenbettermotherfucking.website/

[2b]: https://bestmotherfucking.website/

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