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Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

economist.com

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Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#431

Post by AlanSE »

ajmurmann wrote: post #196
AlanSE wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm extremely sympathetic to this view. Habitat destruction is the #1 or #2 way we're screwing over the planet. However, this looks like an area where environmentalists risk getting themselves into trouble. Global warming is a defined and solvable task, but the messaging keeps changing to something more like an open-ended commitment. That has huge risks for the public to tune it out, and perhaps further procrastinate…

> I kind of don't feel like we can afford to. The housing price increases since 2020 have an atrocious human cost. These rising costs of living are not sustainable. There are some good (tech) jobs that compensate sufficiently for this type of development to work... but no where near enough. On a macroeconomics sense, I'm inclined to think it just doesn't work at all. The costs are rising because there is demand to mo…

Ah yes, the old single family housing issue.

I painfully remember a moment from the 2020 election cycle where CPAC or something had someone, amid much other nonsense, framed Democratic opposition to single-family zoning as ruining our way of life. This is, of course, while 90% of zoning is single-family.

It's not just urban areas that need (at minimum) some zoning diversity. I don't know what the most cost effective density for construction is, but I know that in the US laws have prevented the market from realizing that optimum.

Maybe 6 floor buildings provide the most floor space for the construction cost. Maybe it's 4. With the cost of housing being what it is, I feel like we can't afford to build at density either lower or higher than the optimum.. at least for the median economic persona.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#432

Post by nitrogen »

deepakhj wrote: post #401
supernovae wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then what happens when the reason to live there is now gone? You seem to frame it as an exclusivity problem - they're trying to exclude people from affordable housing... while the people who live there look at it as preserving what makes it livable neither are right or wrong on their own, but surely build at all cost isn't a solution to mountain town charm

Single family homes is exclusive. You’re choosing to build a mega mansion on a big plot of land vs letting 100 people enjoy that land. The latter will be more affordable.

There is way more than enough land for everyone to live the lifestyle they want. This isn't about land, this is about people with money and an obsession with density falling in love with the decades of hard work that locals put into making a place a home, and then destroying what they fell in love with.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#433

Post by sirtimbly »

Optimizing for distance from a national forest seemed like a good idea when purchasing a home 5 years ago. Still seems like a solid plan. Home price rises are great, but sorta irrelevant when you're happy with where you live already, and it's likely that you can keep working remotely as long as you like.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#435

Post by anthomtb »

vailprogrammer wrote: post #341
anthomtb wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vail, and most Colorado ski resorts, are already full of 10+ story hotels. I’m not sure how building a residential or office tower would be any more impactful.

Sorry but that is false. Please name even 1 hotel in Vail that is 10+ stories. The tallest that I can think of is 5, maybe 6 stories. edit: having been a ski bum in Vail, I can't say that I've visited every resort in CO. But across Vail, Breck, Keystone, A Basin, Loveland, Monarch, Cooper, Copper, Beaver Creek, Steamboat, Wolf Creek, Crested Butte, all 5 mountains of Aspen, there are no 10+ story towers. I'm trying t…

Fine. 10+ was my memory failing me. But the Four Seasons and whatever houses Matsuihisa sushi are 9 (when viewed from the mountain, not the highway).

Overall point here is that Vail and other ski resort towns happily build very large buildings for vacationers and second home owners. I just don’t buy that having very large office and residential buildings would have that much greater of an environmental, or even quality of life, impact.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#436

Post by vkou »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #416
vkou wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever I see statement like this, it makes me wonder if you know where your food comes from. Mostly from machines and chemical inputs made by people who live in cities, used by people who can barely make ends meet in rural areas.

Being sold on the idea of using machines and chemical inputs for everything is the reason most farmers can't make ends meet. There are other paradigms of agriculture that are much more efficient; unfortunately farmers are bending over backwards to feed the folks in the city who want very specific things, and don't care about the consequences.

No, most farmers can't make ends meet because food is a commodity, because it benefits from economies of scale, and because their competition is highly optimized mega-farms with large warchests.

Without the machines and chemical inputs, roughly half of the world's population would starve in a few months. They significantly increase yields, and reduce required labour, at the cost of... Problems that future people will have to deal with.

The specific thing city people want is the same thing that all people want. Cheap food. There is zero reason to turn this into a culture war, when it's basic economics. Most people can't afford paying $7 for a gallon of milk, or $30 got a chicken.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#437

Post by wyoawayd »

eysquared wrote: post #24

There seems to be a lot of negativity in the comments so far. Is this not the dream that is often touted on hacker news? Work at a FAANG and "retire" somewhere more affordable? I'm personally doing just this. I was lucky enough to land a good job out of college, buy a house in a desired area, and see it appreciate in the last 10 years. This increase plus the birth of my kids left me wondering if there wasn't a better…

I'm honestly appalled that a comment that unironically says "fuck you, I got mine" is so upvoted.

You have a responsibility to society (the same society that put you in the position you are in, able to move/work remotely and pay you these exorbitant sums) to not ruin your community. If you moving to a place would cause the community in that place to suffer, it is your responsibility to not move there.

The fact that SV/tech has forgotten any sense of personal responsibility and apparently thinks it is perfectly okay to trample on the lives of others is exactly why non-tech people have such disdain for FAANG workers.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#438

Post by twiddling »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #425
grecy wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I continue to be amazed by the overt disdain long-time locals have for second home owners Housing can not be both affordable and a good investment. Given second homes are an investment, by definition having one means you're helping make homes unaffordable.

A second home isn't necessarily an investment, especially if it's a vacation home. It can be just a place you go on vacation.

Yeah, the common old "cottage" Up North is yielding to 2nd luxury homes which than have to be VRBOed in order to cover the mortgage. Happened to my in-laws lake. Simple cabins displaced and the crowd being far more transient.

Of course they pocketed a seven figure profit, because of the lakefront property, and the 100 year old wood cabin was bulldozed.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#439

Post by grecy »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #425
grecy wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I continue to be amazed by the overt disdain long-time locals have for second home owners Housing can not be both affordable and a good investment. Given second homes are an investment, by definition having one means you're helping make homes unaffordable.

A second home isn't necessarily an investment, especially if it's a vacation home. It can be just a place you go on vacation.

By making that home unavailable for people who actually need a place to live, you're reducing the supply, thus increasing prices, and contributing to unaffordable housing.

I say that as a Software Engineer who is 39 and has never been remotely close to affording even a first home.

Re: Small cities in America’s Mountain West are booming

#440

Post by ihyfhgyfhth »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #390
consensusform wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sentiment isn't unique to small towns either. Residents of Austin, TX have been complaining that the city changed or got too crowded shortly after they moved in, whether that was a year ago or decades ago. People who moved to SF in 2010 complained about the people moving there in 2015. Same thing happens at a neighborhood or district level too. Everybody feels like they were the last person to move in while it w…

It’s almost like it’s progressively getting worse as more people crowd in.

This is the correct identification of cause that people don't want to accept.
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