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Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

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Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#411
post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

running on energy v.s. running on oligarchy.

I don't love the energy use but let's not make a false equivalence.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#412
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reader will find dozens of suggestion in this thread about how coin X is more "efficient". Note that efficiency would mean producing the same properties but with less resources. Not merely using less resources. While experimentation is certainly desired, it's a fallacy that any coin has actually reproduced bitcoin in a more efficient way. To name a couple, - Bitcoin had what some call an "immaculate conception" w…

People often say, BTC has stood the test of time. What was the test exactly. Test to see how many people are greedy? Test to see how much energy can be wasted? How much more can we pollute the environment ? How it can not be used as a currency ? Yes I see, it is still here. But in my view, it shouldn't be. There needs to be another way to solve ledger consensus, other than POW.

Why didn’t Peercoin and Novacoin stand the test of time? Both were PoS and had high market caps.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

running on energy v.s. running on oligarchy. I don't love the energy use but let's not make a false equivalence.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#414
post #403
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is most clients run whatever the politicians tell them to. What makes it even harder for engineers to see what’s actually going on with Bitcoin is that we suck at politicking and don’t even see it when it’s happening: the shaming if you’re running the wrong version, the worshipping of certain devs to help identify shepherds the sheep should follow, the scapegoating of dissenters, etc. Woah there buddy, sp…

> you are the one who's trying to make the case that the ability to make a derivative work of Bitcoin means that PoW has somehow failed No, I never said this and this another straw man. The point is that the most-work chain is allowed to be ignored if the politics are done right. You just need the right people pushing for adoption of the minority chain, and to label the most-work chain as an “attack” or a “bug”. In t…

> The point is that the most-work chain is allowed to be ignored if the politics are done right.

If the best argument against PoW is that people can ignore it, then I don't know what to say to you. Like, don't let me stop you then: go run a Bitcoin miner that ignores PoW, and see if you can convince anyone else to accept your forked coins at 1:1 parity with real Bitcoin.

> Maybe a picture will help

I never once brought up monetary policy, so I'm just going to ignore what you wrote about it. You're answering questions I never asked.

> PoW is ultimately subject to politics which means the whole system is subject to politics.

PoW is ultimately subject to market forces. Miners regularly switch between Bitcoin and BCash, depending on what's profitable at the moment. This indicates that miners are not loyal to any ideology; they're only trying to optimize revenue. Thus the simplest explanation as to why Bitcoin has a much higher PoW than BCash is that Bitcoin has higher demand. Hate to break it to you, but the market has spoken -- there's far more demand for Bitcoin than BCash.

But, let's not mistake that for some grand conspiracy against it. No one is stopping BCash from overtaking Bitcoin; the onus is on the BCash project to convince people to value it more than Bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#415
post #242
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that even remotely strategically good for China......? These miners are probably making USD or some other foreign fiat at the end of the day which adds to the supply of foreign reserves without needing to use trade... And if they're siphoning power to get around currency exchange limits moving wealth abroad then a traditional crackdown to confiscate their equipment would be much more effective (you can't exact…

Governments that are actually tech savvy will realize that the cons of an uncontrollable, non-taxable currency are absolutely epic.

Cryptocurrencies are absolutely taxable — at least in the USA. It’s a gigantic pain in the ass that I feel every April. I don’t know why the USA makes taxes so painfully difficult and complex but that’s another topic and something they can improve on.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#416
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, I don't have very much patience for weasel-wording, pussyfooting, or hand-waving. This was meant in a general sense; it wasn't an accusation. I apologize if it was interpreted otherwise. I was hoping to see more about what distributed systems properties datalisp will be providing? It's fine if you're not ready, but if so, then maybe you could speak more to the specific problems you're trying to solve?

Sure, datalisp is really a very simple idea. First we take canonical S-expressions (made by Ron Rivest for cryptographic signing) as the syntax of the "language" (again it's primarily a data-interchange format meant to be used to build distributed systems). We enforce the restriction that the csexps must have versioned operators, that is (2:op1:0...) would be a the operation `op` and version `0`, the version is a nat…

> However it tries to do type inference and be a "programming language".

"tries to do"? It either does or it doesn't. If you're not sure which, then it doesn't. Let's not use weasel words and misrepresent what the system actually does.

> One nice property of datalog is that the evaluation semantics coincide with the shortest vector path algorithm used to do routing on the internet,

Routing on the Internet is famously not shortest-path, so I don't know how to interpret the rest of this.

> The idea being that each user tries to put the computer into a state that most aligns with their intent (`max` over a total order - in this case ordered by "signal" - is a lattice), therefore they will not choose to persist messages that are spam i.e. messaging in the network is monotone (at the limit you have security and only choose to replace information if it rewards you with higher signal).

You seem to be describing a system where anyone can submit as many messages as they want, but it's up to each node to decide which ones are worthy of consideration ("not-spam") and which ones are not ("spam"). Identifying messages as spam is a notoriously hard problem. It's not even truly solved with email, for example; Cory Doctorow's humorous checklist applies here: https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt

Which brings me to:

> So the anti-sybil mechanism in the network is called "proof of trust" we make participants in the network sign their messages and include a prediction of the signal-vs-noise of their message. Peers in the network will have a prior how much to trust the self-evaluation of this key that they then use to order the message.

This is not an anti-sybil mechanism in any sense of the word. If anyone can send arbitrary amounts of messages (of which an arbitrary amount can be spam), and run arbitrarily many nodes, then any attempt to predict the ratio of not-spam to spam messages is going to fail. Someone who wanted to break this system can choose how many nodes to run and how many spam/not-spam messages to send in order to trick other nodes into mis-classifying messages 100% of the time.

If you want a better understanding of sybils and how to deal with them (specifically, what not to do), you should read the original paper: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...

But, know that sybil-resistance is not the same as BFT.

> Second order byzantine fault tolerance is a class of problems and the representative problem we try to solve (i.e. a "second order decentralization complete problem") is deciding whether to merge a patch and rebuild your system in a byzantine setting.

Making up new words is a great way to confuse and annoy your readers. If you want nodes to decide whether to make forward-progress when other nodes can fail arbitrarily, you need Byzantine fault tolerance. There's a plethora of papers and real-world implementations of high-performance BFT agreement protocols. The language and data format has absolutely nothing to do with the agreement problem.

> The consensus mechanism is based in lattice theory, we have "join consensus" which is a race of sorts, that is you can always merge a patch ahead of the network if you like (stay on the "bleeding edge" so to speak) and then there is a "meet consensus" which is based on the avalanche algorithm and is used to move up the bottom and collapse all patches (or more generally; metadata) into its state.

It sounds like your nodes execute some kind of speculative execution for state-transitions that they somehow believe will be accepted by the network, even though they have no confirmation that they have or will. This is all well and good -- speculative execution of a happy path is a well-known design tactic. But that's not the hard part of distributed system design; the hard part is how to handle the case where the happy path is unavailable. What's the unhappy path look like?

> So the semantics of datalisp end up being something similar to "probabilistic datafun" if you are familiar with semi-naive datalog evaluation semantics then it's a bit like that except we also have a cutoff w.r.t. how much confidence we are willing to tolerate to use a fact / inference. Instead of programming datalisp in a text editor it is more like a graphql of sorts, it /is/ the internet, or rather it reifies the propnet datastructure. The reason we care so much about canonicality and consensus is so that we can take advantage of content addressing.

It sounds like your nodes have no way to actually agree with one another with any certainty, so I take this with a huge bucket of salt.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#417
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, datalisp is really a very simple idea. First we take canonical S-expressions (made by Ron Rivest for cryptographic signing) as the syntax of the "language" (again it's primarily a data-interchange format meant to be used to build distributed systems). We enforce the restriction that the csexps must have versioned operators, that is (2:op1:0...) would be a the operation `op` and version `0`, the version is a nat…

> However it tries to do type inference and be a "programming language". "tries to do"? It either does or it doesn't. If you're not sure which, then it doesn't. Let's not use weasel words and misrepresent what the system actually does. > One nice property of datalog is that the evaluation semantics coincide with the shortest vector path algorithm used to do routing on the internet, Routing on the Internet is famously…

First, thanks for taking the time.

Alright, I realize that what I wrote out on the spot was quite hand-wavy. The devil is in the details, also I honestly am a bit perplexed why you are so insistent on not looking at the (terrible) paper but willing to invest in the discussion at all.

For example the spam comments; in the paper I mention a construction from a project called Vac that deals with this. Bandwidth can be throttled per node per epoch by leaking secret shares of a key that put up collateral.

Regarding shortest path; interesting, I thought it was. Guess I was wrong. Still it is a valid way to do routing and is how I'd intended to do it in the prototype network. The big idea of versioning the operators is to be able to converge on the desired semantics.

The reason I focus on the proof of trust part is because that is how a bunch of decisions are made (such as amount of bandwidth to allocate). You still need a bunch of other constructions to use this data.

The anti-sybil is not just anti-spam it is also about finding correlated intent and packaging that whole echo chamber up as an individual so that you can rate limit / adjust visibility. Major news from an uninteresting group may be more interesting than minor news from an interesting group.

Regarding "making up words" - there are precise definitions that I didn't reproduce because I figured you would want to hear a different narration than the one presented in the paper / the channel.

The way nodes participate in the network is by pinning content addresses and gossiping metadata about pins. At any given time the "commons" is made explicit because it is pinned by a bunch of nodes. The nodes build metadata on top of the bottom (commons), when a consensus is reached, i.e. there is some metadata that everyone has join-ed into their state, then we have a meet consensus and the pin can be moved.

You are still thinking in terms of first order BFT which is why your criticism is a bit.. off base. The network is not trying to start off automatic but rather manual and then discovered patterns will be automated once proven correct.

If you read (and understand) how the amoveo oracles work and look into the properties of prediction markets then you can see that this is actually a social network built on a data-interchange format that is optimized for building authenticated datastructures (i.e. amenable to automation of any first order problems that can be solved with MPC).

Edit: W.r.t. Datafun "trying to" do type inference. Datafun is a research project, he has found most of the type inference rules but some are still missing. The language is not really usable as-is but it "tries to" be, carrying around two typing contexts (one for lattice types and another for algebraic types) and having modal subtyping and such things is complicated and hard to do well. Datalisp is less interested in such things and is closer to being a probabilistic datalog. Again, the versioning of operators is so that we can converge on desired semantics; the mvp is going to be using bayesian factors for inferences and odds of signal:noise for priors attached to facts, this is just for pragmatic reasons (easy to code / reason about) it is probably insufficient for the economic model and composition of prediction markets.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#418
post #414
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are the one who's trying to make the case that the ability to make a derivative work of Bitcoin means that PoW has somehow failed No, I never said this and this another straw man. The point is that the most-work chain is allowed to be ignored if the politics are done right. You just need the right people pushing for adoption of the minority chain, and to label the most-work chain as an “attack” or a “bug”. In t…

> The point is that the most-work chain is allowed to be ignored if the politics are done right. If the best argument against PoW is that people can ignore it, then I don't know what to say to you. Like, don't let me stop you then: go run a Bitcoin miner that ignores PoW, and see if you can convince anyone else to accept your forked coins at 1:1 parity with real Bitcoin. > Maybe a picture will help I never once broug…

> If the best argument against PoW is that people can ignore it, then I don't know what to say to you. Like, don't let me stop you then:

Your counter-argument is "try it, then!". I'm not sure why I have to say this and we can't have an intelligent conversation, but here we go: just because something is possible to do and an argument can be made for its possibility, that doesn't mean that I specifically have the means to pull it off. And talking about my capacity to pull it off derails us from having a meaningful discussion about the potential attack. You're not discussing in good faith I think...

> I never once brought up monetary policy, so I'm just going to ignore what you wrote about it

It wasn't about monetary policy, that was just the context. It was about how the hashrate just goes where the money is, and the money is subject to politics, therefore PoW is subject to politics.

but anyway if you're not going to read my comments, we can't have any meaningful exchange here... especially since you're trying to make this about the BCash cryptobean for some reason, but my point has nothing to do with it. My point is about Proof of Work being ultimately useless.

> PoW is ultimately subject to market forces.

Exactly! Have a good night.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see capitalism as working for/against our future?

Do you mean "capitalism" as in the dogmatic belief an unregulated market will somehow manage human needs to their benefit? Yeah, I think that's an extremely ignorant and outdated ideology. Which is evidently progressing towards human extinction. Optimizing towards the metric of monetary reward/economic growth is just horribly disconnected from human welfare. There is also the fallacy of assuming all things interchang…

C'mon dude, any day now it will become profitable to stop exploiting natural resources, house the homeless, and build towards a future where we aren't completely replaced by robots (see dominos, see boston dynamics, see fruit picking robots)....any day now...bum da ba dum if you believe in magic... /s

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chains themselves determine who has more stakers. The whole concept is self-referential and flawed.

Well of course they have to determine it themselves otherwise they are centralized and dependent on a third-party. Please expand on what you think is flawed and what are the downsides.

> Well of course they have to determine it themselves otherwise they are centralized and dependent on a third-party.

PoW doesn't have that problem.

> Please expand on what you think is flawed and what are the downsides.

If I make a parallel version of the chain where I got all the mining rewards from block one and ended up with a majority stake, how do you decide between that and the other chain?

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