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China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

justsecurity.org

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Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#61

Post by xyzzy123 »

varispeed wrote: post #42

It's becoming clear that their values are completely different from the west. Unfortunately the problem is that consumers here love low prices, but they also love employment rights, social security, free healthcare and other signs of an advanced civilisation - which costs money. The hypocrisy of the society is that they don't care if the product they buy was made in a country that don't respect human rights and was p…

The complex reality of global supply chains works against this.

We would have to further "break" the fungibility of goods and money to truly enforce this, and ensure we have full provenance and reporting along the supply chain. This does exist in a lot of cases but is complex to enforce and subject to laundering.

Chips from X, materials from Y, finished in country Z. Of course complex modern products can have hundreds of suppliers or more in a tree fanning backwards. Compositions backwards in supply chain can change quickly based on cost of materials or output of Bangalore factory vs Taiwan factory in a particular month, for example.

"Comes from China" is not a binary proposition and if you try to assign a percentage you can come up with many different numbers, all of which can vary over time.

Also, is Taiwan part of China in the labelling scheme? Who makes the decision that e.g. Xinjiang uses slave labour? Is the information provided to the consumer "value neutral" and then you provide a lens on top? Or is there a political body writing the values? Who, exactly? If it's an international forum, is China invited?

Consumers might want to decide based on their sense of global justice, their environmental awareness, their opposition to authoritarian regimes, the presence/absence of potentially harmful substances, religious preference or along many other axes.

Companies with ESG frameworks are having a bear of a time just eliminating e.g. modern slavery from their supply chains, and they have a bunch of leverage with their suppliers and more insight than their customers.

I don't like the lack of information about what we buy either but I'm not sure that fully politicising every purchase is an easy answer.

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#62

Post by pasquinelli »

chenzhekl wrote: post #55

The whole article is about the political impact of the proposal, but did not discuss the technical details. What the hell is the New IP? How is topdown governance achieved under this new protocol? That is what I want to know. Not sentences like CCP is evil.

china is one of the countries that we in america get propagandized to about. when i hear things about china, russia, venezuela, north korea, cuba, iran, and probably some i've missed, i assume i've recieved no information from what i've heard.

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#65

Post by sroussey »

na85 wrote: post #36
api wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP can force Chinese to use this, but why would anyone else use it? I can’t see the USA or EU changing architectures unless our governments mandate it, and I see no moves in that direction. We are barely able to get people to implement IPv6 after 20 years of kicking people in the ass to do it, so it will not happen organically.

What happens when trillion-dollar American luxury device manufacturers are no longer able to contact their manufacturers in China?

I’m sure those manufacturers will find a way to not shut down.

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#66

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

xbar wrote: post #18

New IP is an attempt to redesign IP into a top-down governance model. It is not a new "internet protocol." It is a "new internet" protocol where central authority is part of the design. I am morally opposed.

They should just resurrect the OSI protocols.

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#67

Post by mayama »

dkdk8283 wrote: post #35
api wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP can force Chinese to use this, but why would anyone else use it? I can’t see the USA or EU changing architectures unless our governments mandate it, and I see no moves in that direction. We are barely able to get people to implement IPv6 after 20 years of kicking people in the ass to do it, so it will not happen organically.

Money. Australia is heavily influenced by Chinese policy, look at their stance on privacy / encryption / etc. Eventually this will percolate to the rest of the world. It will take decades but I’m sure it will happen. Younger generations are already pro censorship. Chinas influence is strong enough to cause the AU PM to say stupid things: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170714/10385237789/aussi...

The next big destination many people have with respect to internet penetration is Africa. And CCP is ahead of west in capturing African market by working best with dictators and being competitive. For example they sold their telecom towers very cheap, and they work best with only chinese phones. With this cycle, china owns major share of African mobile business in just a few years. It would be easier to to get their IP in there.

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#68

Post by okareaman »

I am genuinely curious about CCP plans if they do become a dominant influence in the world. They are attempting to reprogram Tibetans and Uighurs to erase their culture and make them Chinese. Is that the plan for all other cultures? Is the goal to make us all Chinese speaking Chinese?

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#69

Post by mistersquid »

na85 wrote: post #36
api wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP can force Chinese to use this, but why would anyone else use it? I can’t see the USA or EU changing architectures unless our governments mandate it, and I see no moves in that direction. We are barely able to get people to implement IPv6 after 20 years of kicking people in the ass to do it, so it will not happen organically.

What happens when trillion-dollar American luxury device manufacturers are no longer able to contact their manufacturers in China?

> What happens when trillion-dollar American luxury device manufacturers are no longer able to contact their manufacturers in China?

The relationship is mutual and losing manufacturing contracts with large international companies would deeply affect the Chinese economy.

Admittedly, the Chinese government has very long range vision compared to other governments and can unilaterally enforce austerity on their working class population in ways democratic regimes cannot.

That doesn't mean that China can alienate its international business partners with impunity.

Re: China’s Dystopian “New IP” Plan for a New Internet

#70

Post by sroussey »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #61
varispeed wrote: post #42

It's becoming clear that their values are completely different from the west. Unfortunately the problem is that consumers here love low prices, but they also love employment rights, social security, free healthcare and other signs of an advanced civilisation - which costs money. The hypocrisy of the society is that they don't care if the product they buy was made in a country that don't respect human rights and was p…

The complex reality of global supply chains works against this. We would have to further "break" the fungibility of goods and money to truly enforce this, and ensure we have full provenance and reporting along the supply chain. This does exist in a lot of cases but is complex to enforce and subject to laundering. Chips from X, materials from Y, finished in country Z. Of course complex modern products can have hundred…

You could automate product filtering so you only ever see those that meet your personal ESG preferences. Such smart filters could eventually use supply-chain blockchains for verification.
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