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Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

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Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#491

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

neworbit wrote: post #345
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #128

This reminds me of a story back around that time about a guy who was, like, employee 200 at Amazon. He goes to the can, and sees a vestment sheet for the early employees, and realizes that he’s been hired just after people were getting stock grants. Just just prior to him are shortly to become millionaires, and he’s sitting there with a regular job. He quit because of the inequity, and did a tour with this story as a…

That's Mike Daisey, he did a tour called "Doing Time At Amazon.com"

Thank you for scratching that mental itch. I see his book(s) are available... on Amazon.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#492

Post by PKop »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #480
teachingassist wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an employer-employee power relationship. In general the employer has the power, but it cuts both ways, to some extent. Pulling a resignation notice shows that relationship to have broken down, probably irrevocably, I agree. But, the employer initially broke the relationship, by not keeping their promise regarding the bonus. The employer (perhaps here the boss's boss) knows they have treated the employee unfai…

> But, the employer initially broke the relationship, by not keeping their promise regarding the bonus. Or maybe the employee misunderstood the conditions of receiving the bonus. We can't really judge the situation after hearing just one side.

I think we can judge that since he got away with it, the boss felt that losing him was worse than conceding to his demands.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#493

Post by DistressedDrone »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #488
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you pulling a resignation notice as an argument, an experienced boss would instantly know you would not be an asset he could rely on even mid-term, so his best option from a business perspective would be giving you no bonus at all (or the original one), and immediately starting to look for a replacement (and probably firing you).

Yeah... I'm rather perplexed why the boss didn't just fire him on the spot. A new grad is likely not valuable enough to be worth fighting for.

Depends how long it takes to train a replacement, how short on staff you are, and how many people would apply for the job on short notice.

But I tend to agree with the comment suggesting it was probably to avoid legal action.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#494

Post by emodendroket »

taeric wrote: post #26

This is literally a plot point in Christmas Vacation. Is also why I think it is silly for startups to provide too many perks. It sets obvious precedent and will upset more folks when you stop. Find ways to invest in the company so that success is it's own perk. If the company truly has more, work that into raises where you clearly tie the income to the success of the company.

Presumably they're doing that because they rarely have much to offer just in terms of comp and benefits.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#495

Post by leetcrew »

balfirevic wrote: post #475
tjr225 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality I saw employee #1 switch to a different project and take 3 months off. Seems reasonable. I was happy taking a Friday off here and there when I needed and taking weeks off when I moved. This was in addition to my regular vacations prior to the pandemic. Everyone anti-unlimited PTO seems to be completely missing the forest for the trees. It’s nice to be respected and trusted to do your work. It’s also nice t…

> If I do my job; I can take some time off. What does it mean to "do your job"? At every place I've worked there was an infinite amount of job to be done. If I were to take 4 months off I would do less of it than if I've taken 1 month. So that just shifts the conversation from "how much vacation you have" to "what amount of work is considered enough". Which doesn't seem all that different to me, or at least it would…

to be fair, "what amount of work is considered enough" is still an issue with the traditional PTO setup. following the HR manual to a T is not sufficient to keep a job if you never finish anything. I do prefer the traditional accrual system as I feel it makes expectations more clear, and it slightly reduces the impact of the "did I get a reasonable manager" die roll.

also some people (like me) just don't take a ton of PTO. I look forward to cashing out the max accrual at my final salary whenever I end up switching jobs. unlimited PTO essentially penalizes people like this.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#496

Post by larzang »

tjr225 wrote: post #285
ryandrake wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do really good can you take a year off? If not, then it’s still not unlimited. I’d like my salary and benefits be quantified in my contract rather than “manager discretion” which can go south in a hurry if you have a terrible manager.

In reality I saw employee #1 switch to a different project and take 3 months off. Seems reasonable. I was happy taking a Friday off here and there when I needed and taking weeks off when I moved. This was in addition to my regular vacations prior to the pandemic. Everyone anti-unlimited PTO seems to be completely missing the forest for the trees. It’s nice to be respected and trusted to do your work. It’s also nice t…

I think a fair few of us have been burned by companies where this level of respect absolutely did not and could not exist and engineers were treated equivalent to you, an amateur, calling a plumber to your house and then hovering over them telling them everything they're doing wrong. Informal PTO would have just made the situation even worse.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#497

Post by emodendroket »

andrepd wrote: post #458
thedrbrian wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peter Gibbons: You see, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't even care. >Bob Porter: Don't- don't care? >Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? Before I started working at MASSIVE CORP I thought Office Space was a comedy.....

A co-operative model of ownership would solve that problem. Then if the company succeeds, the workers see the rewards.

Once the company is more than a handful of people that's all pretty theoretical.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#498

Post by alistairSH »

ldiracdelta wrote: post #21
jedberg wrote: post #17

When I worked at eBay, we had a bonus program based on company revenue. It was around 6% of your salary max and managers got around 25% max based on the same formula. For the first few years, you could count on getting a max bonus every quarter. To the point where most everyone who worked there had always gotten one. And the one quarter, we didn't get the max bonus. In fact, I don't think we got it all. People scream…

I've been at places where you get bonuses and me and the wife always call it "magic money". We don't bank on it and we try to pay down debt or invest it.

We're in the same boat.

In my case, the bonus is based on company revenue goals. And it's small (relative to salary). So, I ignore it. It does nothing for my motivation. As a line manager at a large company, in a non-customer facing business unit, I don't have much impact on revenue (I can't bill more hours or sell more units). My personal goals have very little impact on the bonus. If my bonus wasn't part of my stated comp plan (ie, it only paid on years where revenue was actually good), I would appreciate it more. As it is, it doesn't factor into my daily thinking at all.

Wife's bonus can be considerable. And it varies by a huge amount (low end 8% of salary, high end ~30%). It's more of a motivation for her - the high end is based on her performance, not company metrics she can't impact. Of course, if she busts her ass and doesn't get the high end, she is miserable until the next cycle. Hasn't happened yet, but two years without the high level and I bet she looks elsewhere.

We're fortunate to be able to budget and live within our means without the bonuses. At lower salary levels, in a high COL region, that might not be easy. Like you, we either use them to pay down student loans, pay off cars, or go on a more extravagant vacation than normal.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#499

Post by ectopod »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #480
teachingassist wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an employer-employee power relationship. In general the employer has the power, but it cuts both ways, to some extent. Pulling a resignation notice shows that relationship to have broken down, probably irrevocably, I agree. But, the employer initially broke the relationship, by not keeping their promise regarding the bonus. The employer (perhaps here the boss's boss) knows they have treated the employee unfai…

> But, the employer initially broke the relationship, by not keeping their promise regarding the bonus. Or maybe the employee misunderstood the conditions of receiving the bonus. We can't really judge the situation after hearing just one side.

> However, the older employees warned me that the criteria for such bonuses were often ill-defined. I therefore pushed for clear achievable objectives. These pre-agreed objectives were promised, but never provided.

He asked for clear conditions and management agreed to provide them, but never did. They were playing him. The comments from the older employees suggest this wasn't the first time they used this tactic.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#500

Post by salmo »

Luckily when I started at my company, FY-end bonuses had already bounced around I learned to treat them like a Christmas present. The individual performance aspect existed on paper, but no management chain exercised that because it ruined team dynamics. The only time I saw that done was because someone was basically no-show but it was too hard to fire them, so they got 0 bonus, and their share got spread to the rest of the team.

Awards are similar. I rarely get them for the things I really deserve them for. Sometimes I'd get $250 for 2 hours of work helping some big project and got roped in the list because I was on an email chain. Sometimes I'd get one because the project I did the year before got eclipsed by something else, and nothing this year under my VP merited it.

Folks get angsty about what/who deserves one and what doesn't. It seems the less talented/hardworking the person, the angstier they are.

I try to teach the newer folks around me:

- Don't expect them - Don't get jealous, you don't know the whole situation. - Just be happy when you get a little cash. - You won't get them when you should, you will sometimes when you shouldn't.

You have absolutely no control of end-of-FY bonuses. Buy something fun (a new TV, game console, or hobby thing) and stash the rest. Do not use it for a down payment on something like a new car/boat/house (unless it's just tacking more on to something you were already buying). I've seen too many people do that and end up underwater the next year when we get nothing and they were banking on it for payments.

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