Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#221

Post by NoOneNew » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

sleavey wrote: post #158

oefrha wrote: post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/

They have an extremely detailed explanation and process to determine the footprint of Bitcoin transactions.

Anyways, they also have the numbers for Visa based transactions, which can start to give you an idea how efficient the old system of digital transactions are. Its 980,000+ Visa transactions to equate the energy used for 1 bitcoin transaction.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#222

Post by mratsim » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

runeks wrote: post #170

bonestamp2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

That’s true. But it’s important to point out that proof-of-work (PoW) is more decentralized than e.g. proof-of-stake (PoS). For example, with PoW you only need a single honest node to arrive at the correct chain during initial sync. With PoS there is no such guarantee, since there’s no inherent way for a new node joining the network to decide which chain to pick when presented with two different, but equally valid, c…

There can't be 2 equally valid chains or your protocol is buggy.

One chain must have more votes from stakers than the other after a while.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#223

Post by andxor » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

goblin89 wrote: post #113

I know it’s a flawed analogy, but considering the influence China has on Bitcoin, on some level buying into Bitcoin seems not unlike shorting the US dollar.

Shorting the USD seems like a pretty good idea given the insane amount of money printing.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#224

Post by mratsim » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

openfuture wrote: post #160

pmlnr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So point them out, please. One that is efficient on all levels.

First of all I want to preface my comment with the disclaimer that proof of stake is nonsense in many ways (vulnerable to coordinated bribery attacks - we don't know how to coordinate well enough to execute them yet but the math checks out, also plutocracy..) However it is a pretty expedient way to get something out the door fast (it's literally the simplest form of anti-sybil you can make and a cryptocurrency is ant…

The bribery can be solved with slashing and making it economically unviable to cede to bribery.

Regarding plutocracy, it depends on proof-of-stake vs delegated-proof-of-stake. In one, everyone can become a staker and earnings are spread to all, in the other, some stakers are elected and earnings will be concentrated to them.

Proof-of-work has inequality issues:

- economies of scale for those that have the capital to rent a power plant and a large datacenter in a location with cheap electricity and/or cheap cooling.

- latest ASICs / GPUs access at scale.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#225

Post by tomxor » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

sleavey wrote: post #158

oefrha wrote: post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

Not only are fiat currencies cheaper, they are also useful... Bitcoin is no longer a practical currency, so comparisons to fiat currencies are pointless.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#226

Post by dylkil » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

runeks wrote: post #170

bonestamp2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

That’s true. But it’s important to point out that proof-of-work (PoW) is more decentralized than e.g. proof-of-stake (PoS). For example, with PoW you only need a single honest node to arrive at the correct chain during initial sync. With PoS there is no such guarantee, since there’s no inherent way for a new node joining the network to decide which chain to pick when presented with two different, but equally valid, c…

>For example, with PoW you only need a single honest node to arrive at the correct chain during initial sync. With PoS there is no such guarantee, since there’s no inherent way for a new node joining the network to decide which chain to pick when presented with two different, but equally valid, chains.

What youve said here makes very little sense.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#227

Post by arebop » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

NoOneNew wrote: post #221

sleavey wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ They have an extremely detailed explanation and process to determine the footprint of Bitcoin transactions. Anyways, they also have the numbers for Visa based transactions, which can start to give you an idea how efficient the old system of digital transactions are. Its 980,000+ Visa transactions to equate the energy used for 1 bitcoin transaction.

This is comparing Visa's use of energy to Bitcoin's. It is not comparing Visa's use of all resources to Bitcoin's. It is like saying hybrid cars are more efficient than electric or gas cars, because they use less electricity than fully-electric cars and less gas than ICEs.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#228

Post by danShumway » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

disruptalot wrote: post #175

pmlnr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So point them out, please. One that is efficient on all levels.

The reader will find dozens of suggestion in this thread about how coin X is more "efficient". Note that efficiency would mean producing the same properties but with less resources. Not merely using less resources. While experimentation is certainly desired, it's a fallacy that any coin has actually reproduced bitcoin in a more efficient way. To name a couple, - Bitcoin had what some call an "immaculate conception" w…

> have stood in the market for 10 years straight

At which point, Bitcoin proponents will up the requirements again. This is an excuse people use to avoid talking about the fact that Bitcoin has spent the last 2-3 years consistently proving that it doesn't scale and that it is unusable as a currency.

> had what some call an "immaculate conception"

Or, it was a good first try that needs iteration now that we understand that hyper-deflation is a bad thing for a currency, now that we understand that pseudononymous addresses don't provide any real privacy guarantees at all, and now that we understand that transaction speed and cost has to be something that's optimized for early on in a coin's life and that those issues can't be fixed by pasting an ad-hoc, unproven non-blockchain solution on top of the coin 10 years later.

The weird, religious loyalty people have to reinterpreting Bitcoin's flaws as strengths is setting the entire crypto ecosystem back. If you want to appeal to 'stability', then banks have been around for centuries. But if you're trying to build something new, you're going to have occasionally innovate and iterate on the thing you're building.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#229

Post by stickfigure » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

mratsim wrote: post #222

runeks wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true. But it’s important to point out that proof-of-work (PoW) is more decentralized than e.g. proof-of-stake (PoS). For example, with PoW you only need a single honest node to arrive at the correct chain during initial sync. With PoS there is no such guarantee, since there’s no inherent way for a new node joining the network to decide which chain to pick when presented with two different, but equally valid, c…

There can't be 2 equally valid chains or your protocol is buggy. One chain must have more votes from stakers than the other after a while.

The chains themselves determine who has more stakers. The whole concept is self-referential and flawed.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#230

Post by cortic » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

oefrha wrote: post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

The ability to turn electricity into money is not the problem, or if it is, then lump all of modern endeavors in capitalism alongside of Bitcoin.

The problem is we (the world) are not effectively taxing carbon emissions. Right now it should be unprofitable to use coal or oil energy. If this was done right, Bitcoin would be a massive stimulus to renewables.