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Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

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Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#431

Post by sneak »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #428
ascorbic wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a famous psychological experiment where people are split into pairs and given a pot of cash to share. One person decides how it should be apportioned, and the other decides whether to accept that share. If they reject it, neither person receives any money. The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing. However people don't do that. At a certain point,…

> The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing This is a moral decision for me, not a logical one. Someone trying to make you accept an unequal portion is 100% trying to take advantage of you. The only situation I would accept an unequal share is if the portion was significant enough for the fact that it's unequal to not matter.

Morally you are entitled to zero, so it's still a good deal to take whatever you are offered.

It's not like you both did an equal amount of work. You're not being taken advantage of.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#432

Post by matkoniecz »

forgingahead wrote: post #254
ben0x539 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my boss asks: what is to stop me threatening to resign every time I don’t get my way? Nothing. That's how negotiating an employment relationship works. Holy shit.

It's not. That is an independent contractor relationship. Employment means you play ball for the stability of the paycheck. If you want to throw a tantrum every time you feel slighted, you shouldn't commit to a full-time permanent job. Employees are not the top of the totem pole, there are always other factors that people making these decisions have to consider. They don't always have to share that with you. It's a n…

> They don't always have to share that with you

How that is related to fact that employee can resign from work if they want?

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#433

Post by matkoniecz »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #397
adamcharnock wrote: post #57

This reminds me of my first job as a developer, age 21. I haven’t shared it before, so here goes... There was a ‘crunch’ coming up at work (i.e. IMHO, bad planning) and so the boss offered everyone a bonus if they performed well. However, the older employees warned me that the criteria for such bonuses were often ill-defined. I therefore pushed for clear achievable objectives. These pre-agreed objectives were promise…

After you pulling a resignation notice as an argument, an experienced boss would instantly know you would not be an asset he could rely on even mid-term, so his best option from a business perspective would be giving you no bonus at all (or the original one), and immediately starting to look for a replacement (and probably firing you).

Given that fraud was attempted - in some cases the lying boss would be fired.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#434

Post by breeny592 »

It's actually become an interview question for me of "is there a bonus scheme" where I'm hoping the answer is actually no. I've yet to work in a company that has a structured bonus scheme that hasn't resulted in a worse culture for it.

The worst was in a company where your max bonus was depending on getting a "5 out of 5" performance review - however the whole business unit needed to average out to a particular number (I'm fairly sure it needed to be down the middle at 3 out of 5). What this meant was for every exceptional employee, someone else had to be under-performing in the eyes of the company. The end result was two types of teams: no one would rock the boat or have any initiative so everyone was perfectly average, or completely cut throat attitudes leading to burn out and animosity.

YMMV but to date I haven't had a good time in a company that has bonus schemes (even if I personally have financially benefited from it - the cost came at culture, stress and work life balances).

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#435

Post by kergonath »

LambdaComplex wrote: post #199
kbenson wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not staying at a job past 5 unless I have a share of the company. Screw that. Every startup owner thinks they are unique and that’s why 90% of them fail. Not all companies are the same, and not all companies are startups. I'm back working at the same company which was my first job in tech. Not for the second time, not the third either, but the fourth time now. I was first hired there over 22 years ago in tech s…

> even if it can't pay a huge amount for some positions, there's always a lot of recognition that everyone is needed to make it work, and everyone is appreciated I can't pay my rent in recognition or appreciation though.

But it makes it easier to stay motivated to keep working. Of course, at the end of the day you still need enough to pay the bills. You still have a better, healthier, less stressful life than if you feel you are being exploited or not recognised.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#436

Post by kergonath »

lelanthran wrote: post #409
Sebb767 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. Yes, it does not replace money, but for some people it is worth more to feel happy at work than to receive a bit more money.

> But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht. It's all a tradeoff and for some things you are unlikely to get the big payoff without a risk involved. Determining where your personal b…

> It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht.

Great. Now you have to pay for maintenance, staff, and insurance. So you need to keep making that amount of money or you’ll lose it. The added stress and expenses make it a bit of a poisoned gift.

> TLDR; you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

Most people who play don’t win, either.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#437

Post by ycombinete »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #397
adamcharnock wrote: post #57

This reminds me of my first job as a developer, age 21. I haven’t shared it before, so here goes... There was a ‘crunch’ coming up at work (i.e. IMHO, bad planning) and so the boss offered everyone a bonus if they performed well. However, the older employees warned me that the criteria for such bonuses were often ill-defined. I therefore pushed for clear achievable objectives. These pre-agreed objectives were promise…

After you pulling a resignation notice as an argument, an experienced boss would instantly know you would not be an asset he could rely on even mid-term, so his best option from a business perspective would be giving you no bonus at all (or the original one), and immediately starting to look for a replacement (and probably firing you).

It reminds me of relationships where one partner uses the threat of divorce/breaking-up to win arguments.

It's definitely a nuclear option, which most often should be responded to with, "okay, do what you have to do".

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#438

Post by quelltext »

dilyevsky wrote: post #43
jedberg wrote: post #17

When I worked at eBay, we had a bonus program based on company revenue. It was around 6% of your salary max and managers got around 25% max based on the same formula. For the first few years, you could count on getting a max bonus every quarter. To the point where most everyone who worked there had always gotten one. And the one quarter, we didn't get the max bonus. In fact, I don't think we got it all. People scream…

If i recall the same happened when google replaced their holiday gift phone with donation to some charities they picked.

"The Human Fund"

- since Festivus 201X

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#439

Post by datavirtue »

mk89 wrote: post #406
serial_dev wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I come to the "I just don't even care" state, I start looking for another job. I was at a startup company that in my opinion got a great idea and with enough focus, we could have been successful. I always tried to think about the product, the impact, the roadmap, the quality... And after some time I realized that I just annoy the founders and I care and worry more about things then they do. So I decided to care…

I somehow understand you. However, I had some time to reflect on this (because I am similar to you, in a way) and the best I got to is: it's just business. You can be motivated as much as you want, but tomorrow you can be replaced. Your company gets acquired, and you happen to be in the "wrong" office. Bye bye. Or whatever other reason. Covid! Bye bye again. We are just minions with a good technical knowledge. And if…

I have worked directly with several CTO/CIOs and one thing stood out. The y kissed my ass but no one kissed theirs. It is a very tenuous position that normally gets replaced when the weather changes. I was being groomed for the spot at a company, riding shotgun with the then-CIO. Weather changed, our CIO was out, I was retained (aggressively so) but my path to C-level was gone just the same.

If it falls in your lap, take it. But don't count on it. Leverage the extra money under the assumption that you're out in three months. It's position formed of a certain mix of competence, pedigree, communication ability, and politics. Tenuous.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#440

Post by barry-cotter »

dudeman13 wrote: post #413
barry-cotter wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the academic paper linked to in that news article > the hours at which output is a maximum is at 67 and at 64, respectively. In fact, there are a few cases in which actual observations on hours of work exceed 67 and 64 meaning that, in these instances, average observed hours were at levels where the estimated marginal product of hours is negative! http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf The Productivity of Working Hours J…

The original claim was about knowledge workers. In repetitive work of course more time is always gonna be more productive, with diminishing returns. Until the worker/slave mind or body breaks at least. Mind you, I'm not saying the same doesn't apply for knowledge workers. Just that this specific articles doesn't provide evidence for knowledge workers. I imagine that there will be more science being done for productiv…

My original claim was that there’s no research showing negative productivity for any job for less than 60 hours a week of work. If you have anything to the contrary please share.

There is no reason to believe knowledge workers are any different than manual workers here. Your productivity turns negative when you make so many mistakes that you’re destroying value, not creating it. The article may be only weak evidence for knowledge workers but it certainly isn’t no evidence. Other forms of evidence while not rising to the standards of publication certainly don’t point to 40 hours work a week being optimal for productivity of most knowledge workers. Physicians, professors at research institutions, top tier lawyers, all these people work insane hours.

There is no evidence that working less than 60 hours a week is better for productivity, anywhere, just a bunch of people wishing really hard.

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