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Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

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Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#181
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

Yes, and it’s vastly less than Bitcoin. Simply because it’s centralized, and a centralized system is always more efficient than a decentralized one. It’s a well known trade off. A better comparison would be gold versus Bitcoin, as they’re both similarly decentralized. Just comparing energy consumption between the two probably wouldn’t make sense, though, as gold mining e.g. ruins vast areas of land.

> Yes, and it’s vastly less than Bitcoin.

Where is it?

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#182
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter where it is used up, the point is that it is unnecessary work taking a huge amount of energy, that could be used for better things. Even using up purely renewable energy makes every other industry rely more on non-renewables, so it is a lose-lose either way.

Maybe with the simplistic perspective that Bitcoin has a value that you can calculate. Energy usecases are worth what energy they use. Energy exists in a mostly free market and that's the best way to determine value. Everything else is conjecture.

Or, we don’t live in a fictional world where infinite growth exists.

Useless energy expenditure is useless and objectively bad.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#183
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

Yes, and it’s vastly less than Bitcoin. Simply because it’s centralized, and a centralized system is always more efficient than a decentralized one. It’s a well known trade off. A better comparison would be gold versus Bitcoin, as they’re both similarly decentralized. Just comparing energy consumption between the two probably wouldn’t make sense, though, as gold mining e.g. ruins vast areas of land.

Care to share your sources?

Naturally, a summation of the energy expenditure of all of the related components of the existing fiat system must be included, from the totality of all people operating the various functions that facilitate the existing fiat system; i.e. their commutes, aggregate expenditures due to needing to operate physical banks, power usage at these physical banks, etc. are all factored into this calculation... right? All the way to the minting of new currency (probably almost negligible in the aggregate), to all of the security apparatus that ensure that bills are legitimate, to major parts of the US Secret Service that verify that bills are legitimate (including all of their expenses scaled to the proportion of agents dedicated to this task force)... I honestly don't believe that the electricity usage of BTC is higher than fiat currency operation, in the aggregate.

Please share any sources if you have any information that contradicts this. It's an interesting area of open research + I'm curious if I've missed any publications recently.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#184
post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

A good reminder that bitcoin is mined by 51% chinese miners and that it's not that decentralized, obviously.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#185
frustrating that the ongoing use of bitcoin is never going to require less power. transactions take ages because of how much work is required to update the chain.

when the imaginary currency goes away, maybe we can move onto something more efficient like giant rocks with holes drilled in them?

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#186
post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

I'm not sure. The trouble is you're comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand you have money which, while not essential for civilisation, is generally agreed to be a good thing. On the other you have this thing that absolutely is not money by any stretch. How do you possibly calculate how much value each of these adds to society?

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have a source for your claims? Apparently googling things is extremely hard if the search results confront ones own bias... Here you go: https://postimg.cc/qttW8tSm (Even the pro Energiewende org “agora” has a problem hiding the facts in their charts ( https://www.agora-energiewende.de/service/agorameter/chart/p... )

Yes it is hard, can you provide comparison data from < 2000 and the search words you used? Is the Y axis price or usage?

Y-Axis is €/MWh (Euro per megawatt-hour)

And, while yes, the prices tend to spike into negativity for short periods, that's actually pretty normal to happen for countries which partake in the Synchronous grid of Continental Europe then and now.

The base issue, or at least a bigger part of that then wind/solar is, of that is actually coal. A coal plant needs tens of hours, up to days to shut-down; and then another few days to start up again - and such starts-stops are quite taxing on the plant; it can only survive a dozen of those before requiring major maintenance to happen.

Wind can actually be turned off quite dynamically (rotate the blade such that the angle of attack for the wind goes down to zero), not milliseconds, but a few seconds to minutes.

For the reverse you need storage, things like batteries or hydro (pumped storage) can and are used for that already.

Using terms like "Exportweltmeister" (export champion) in context of the European energy market is just rather non-sense, Germans energy politic is far from perfect, but it was never trimmed for export.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#188
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and it’s vastly less than Bitcoin. Simply because it’s centralized, and a centralized system is always more efficient than a decentralized one. It’s a well known trade off. A better comparison would be gold versus Bitcoin, as they’re both similarly decentralized. Just comparing energy consumption between the two probably wouldn’t make sense, though, as gold mining e.g. ruins vast areas of land.

Care to share your sources? Naturally, a summation of the energy expenditure of all of the related components of the existing fiat system must be included, from the totality of all people operating the various functions that facilitate the existing fiat system; i.e. their commutes, aggregate expenditures due to needing to operate physical banks, power usage at these physical banks, etc. are all factored into this cal…

This is a bit of crypto-delusion I have never understood: why compare Bitcoin with the financial system as a whole to get out of the "it is mostly powered by coal plants in China"-argument?

Does Bitcoin assess credit risks of governments, companies and people and then extend+manage credit?

What does Bitcoin offer in regards to risk management/hedging for operating businesses?

Maybe Bitcoin has some liquidity management feature for real businesses that I am not aware of?

Bitcoin has very low uptake in payments, so trying to compare its energy consumption to all retail branches and the oil burned by the employees on their commute strikes me as misleading and ignorant

Modern banks and financial institutions are much more than a long list of payments. Please learn a little bit about what a company like Bank of America actually does

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#189
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone tried to calculate the energy expenditure of the fiat currency system as a comparison, ideally per "unit worth" (whatever that might be) since fiat still vastly outcapitalises cryptocurrency?

Yes, and it’s vastly less than Bitcoin. Simply because it’s centralized, and a centralized system is always more efficient than a decentralized one. It’s a well known trade off. A better comparison would be gold versus Bitcoin, as they’re both similarly decentralized. Just comparing energy consumption between the two probably wouldn’t make sense, though, as gold mining e.g. ruins vast areas of land.

> Yes, and it’s vastly less than Bitcoin.

Ponder, for a moment, the way in which governments use the "printing" of fiat money to fund wars (for private sector profit, revolving back into that private sector's lobbying those governments for even more war and military spending).

Ponder, for a moment, the amount of energy and Earth's resources expended to materialize these wars and military spending.

Bitcoin (or, the proof-of-work cryptocurrency concept as such) by its design prevents (or at least very severely inhibits) this type of governmental hijacking for a mere fraction of the resources spent.

This applies to other heavily-subsidized sectors/areas/industries with a powerful lobbying influence/revolving doors/etc.

Imagine if we could vote by paying our taxes in Bitcoin (in a Bitcoin full-blown, mainstream Bitcoin economy) in proportion to specific Bitcoin addresses/accounts allocated for specific policy issues or target governmental groups, and thus have an actual, real and direct democracy instead of a 4-year theatre of false puppets and promises.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#190
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe with the simplistic perspective that Bitcoin has a value that you can calculate. Energy usecases are worth what energy they use. Energy exists in a mostly free market and that's the best way to determine value. Everything else is conjecture.

Or, we don’t live in a fictional world where infinite growth exists. Useless energy expenditure is useless and objectively bad.

>we don’t live in a fictional world where infinite growth exists.

we do. One just need to see the world beyond their own planet.

>Useless energy expenditure is useless and objectively bad.

your comment cost some energy to be expended. Basically most of computer use by humans is a useless energy expenditure, yet somehow some people single out crypto.

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