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Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

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Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#51
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, the model of BTC as “digital gold” is pretty resilient to 51% attacks: if you don’t touch your coins, no one can take them away from you. (A 51% attack can’t reassign coins.) Of course, the price of BTC might tank in response to the news of a successful 51% attack, but it’ll probably bounce back just like every other event in BTC history.

> if you don’t touch your coins, no one can take them away from you. (A 51% attack can’t reassign coins.) it can't generate new unsigned transactions but it can roll back the network to a state when someone else owned those coins. from a practical perspective there is no difference, you no longer have those coins.

there's a limit to how far it can roll back the network, it probably wouldn't be able to roll back more than a few days..

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#52
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was tried a few years ago with the segwit2x fork. A group of miners comprising 82% of the hashpower got together and agreed to activate the segwit2x fork. Despite having a overwhelming majority of the hashpower the fork was never happened due to lack of community consensus. https://dcgco.medium.com/bitcoin-scaling-agreement-at-consen...

the consensus vote to activate sw2x on existing BTC network was an in-band mechanism, and set to some super impossible threshold like 95 or 99% to activate a protocol change. this is a different situation, where an out of band entity can selectively shut off a significant fraction of hashpower, and unlike the weedy obscurity of an architectural spat between largely unknown (by the mainstream) such a move would (indee…

>the consensus vote to activate sw2x on existing BTC network was an in-band mechanism, and set to some super impossible threshold like 95 or 99% to activate a fork.

Source for this? I searched around and the target was 80%. https://www.weusecoins.com/what-is-segwit2x/

> such a move would (indeed, will) make major waves in mainstream Joe Pension Fund/ Number Go Up news, who will not be familiar with nor interested in the technical arguments for the fork that is being actively suppressed. there's no weeks-long debate window here.

Fair point, given how the markets reacted to this drop in hashrate.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#53
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re getting downvotes, but I think (correct me if I’m wrong) you meant something like the hash difficulty will adjust down if this is an extended downtime. So we would have fewer miners, easier hash difficulty and the same block rate. This would indeed be better for the environment, at least for the short term. This and the reduction in centralization could be argued as being “good” for Bitcoin.

I actually meant it as a joke. Because according to Bitcoin enthusiasts, any news is actually good for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin fixes this /s

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#54

> Significantly, the Xinjiang and Sichuan regions of China combined account for more than 50 percent of the overall Bitcoin mining hash rate I don't get it, doesn't this effectively mean China can force a 51% attack by just strongarming the pools that operate there?

> doesn't this effectively mean China can force a 51% attack by just strongarming the pools that operate there?

Yes, in theory. There's a coordination problem to get all the pools to do what you want, but if they (or anyone) could pull that off, then yes.

So then what happens?

If a single entity controls >50% of the hash power of the network, they could start finding blocks with arbitrary (invalid) transactions and adding them to the chain. The transactions they'd be able to insert are called 'double-spends', which is that wallet A sends its balance to wallet B, and then in the next block sends the same balance (magicked into existence) to some third wallet C.

All this can happen. The way the network is supposed to work though, miners don't just commit new blocks and call it a day, the 'full nodes' have to accept the blocks. The miners are more or less offering up solved blocks to the full nodes for their acceptance.

As a full node it's trivial to take a look at this double-spend from A->C and say 'nope this doesn't look like a valid block to me, try again'. At this point if enough full nodes do this, the 51% of 'bad' miners are just wasting their time, the true hashrate of the network is now 49% of what it was a moment ago, and the remaining 'good' miners will continue to find blocks. Business as usual.

It's a much harder problem to control >51% full nodes, mostly because they're more geographically distributed. This is because they're pretty simple to set up at home and run, without worrying about up front cost of miners, electricity and noise and so on. A bitcoin full node can run on a raspi with a 1tb external hard drive, and a normal consumer internet connection.

Another interesting tidbit is that with control of 51% of the miners, this still only means a malicious actor finds a block first 51% of the time... to get the 6 blocks usually required for confirmation (in a row) is a ~3% chance. Not a perfect safeguard, but just some perspective on how hard it is to execute an attack like this.

The idea is that the miners are beholden to the full nodes, who are the actual actors in the distributed consensus system.

There's some other game theory around why one would want to do obvious double spends after having that much control (why not just sell the bitcoin and take profits?). But there are definitely reasons a state actor would want to try to destroy the network.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#56
post #18
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few steps in between, but if the chain of events really is: coal mine accidents > coal shortage > power blackouts > drop in bitcoin mining, then the end result is effectively they were indeed slaving away for bitcoin.

I think you got cause and effect reversed. The correct chain of events is: coal miners slave away to produce coal, which is generally burned to produce heat. Part of that heat is used to run turbines to electric generators[1], and part of the generated electricity is used for bitcoin mining. Does this mean they're slaving away for bitcoin mining? I guess, but only partially. Saying they're slaving away for bitcoin mi…

Without the bitcoin driven demand, there would be less pressure to mine faster than feasible and fewer accidents.

The pressure would still be there... but there are cost-related reasons the mining is colocated with the power generation.

Seems a reasonable guess that this virtuous cycle of coal-and-crypto mining synergy resulted in some soylent externalities.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#57

Something something bitcoin transcends govts

So far it has.

So far it’s been irrelevant to govt and enjoying free rent.

Guess we’ll see how many people are willing to die on this hill. Shifts in power shed blood.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This makes zero sense. Germany gets 24% of electricity from lignite/coal - down from 45% 6 or 7 years ago.

This is a sloppy counterfactual, because that number could, and should, have been close to zero already! Yes, things are improving slowly. Yes, it is still crappy compared to the smart play.

I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. Coal and nuclear are fairly interchangeable. Since nuclear was shut down and some coal remains, it’s fairly clear Germany chose coal over nuclear for the medium term.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#59
post #54

> Significantly, the Xinjiang and Sichuan regions of China combined account for more than 50 percent of the overall Bitcoin mining hash rate I don't get it, doesn't this effectively mean China can force a 51% attack by just strongarming the pools that operate there?

> doesn't this effectively mean China can force a 51% attack by just strongarming the pools that operate there? Yes, in theory. There's a coordination problem to get all the pools to do what you want, but if they (or anyone) could pull that off, then yes. So then what happens? If a single entity controls >50% of the hash power of the network, they could start finding blocks with arbitrary (invalid) transactions and a…

inserting invalid transactions is not the double spend issue.

If their hash rate is over 50% they can "unconfirm" a confirmed transaction by making a chain with more work on it. This is how the attack plays out in simplified form:

Bitcoin is sent to an exchange by the attacker, confirmed, sold and withdrawn for cash. Attacker then makes a chain with more work on it than the chain where the Bitcoin was sent to the exchange. Now as far as Bitcoin network is concerned, the coins were never sent to the exchange, but the exchange already let the user sell the Bitcoin and cash out. So now the exchange has neither the cash or the Bitcoin. The attacker has both.

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