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Why the United States has the best research universities

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Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#241
College rankings, research citations, and money are heavily valued in the US. In Europe, there is much more emphasis on equality.

Tons of research funding happens in the US because corporations lobby Congress to give money for research, which props up the status of those schools, and more research comes out.

US draws more foreign students than I suspect any other country with all this research money, which in turn draws more status and money.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#242
post #8

The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere. For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)

The World's Best Pencil!

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's somewhat ironic that the US which was founded on escaping the large "unfair" inequalities of old Europe and a strong anti-establishment/anti-elite basis has since become a beacon of a new elite/establishment and inequality. It's probably one of those cyclical things in life. Your former greatness ends up becoming a burden that keeps growing. Eventually it'll become so heavy that things fall apart. From the ash…

US views on China repeatedly remind me of old-regime European commentary on a younger US.

Here's an example:

"The following comparison will illustrate my meaning. During the campaigns of the Revolution the French introduced a new system of tactics into the art of war, which perplexed the oldest generals, and very nearly destroyed the most ancient monarchies in Europe. They undertook (what had never before been attempted) to make shift without a number of things which had always been held to be indispensable in warfare; they required novel exertions on the part of their troops which no civilized nations had ever thought of; they achieved great actions in an incredibly short space of time; and they risked human life without hesitation to obtain the object in view. The French had less money and fewer men than their enemies; their resources were infinitely inferior; nevertheless they were constantly victorious, until their adversaries chose to imitate their example.

"The Americans have introduced a similar system into their commercial speculations; and they do for cheapness what the French did for conquest. The European sailor navigates with prudence; he only sets sail when the weather is favorable; if an unforseen accident befalls him, he puts into port; at night he furls a portion of his canvas; and when the whitening billows intimate the vicinity of land, he checks his way, and takes an observation of the sun. But the American neglects these precautions and braves these dangers. He weighs anchor in the midst of tempestuous gales; by night and by day he spreads his sheets to the wind; he repairs as he goes along such damage as his vessel may have sustained from the storm; and when he at last approaches the term of his voyage, he darts onward to the shore as if he already descried a port. The Americans are often shipwrecked, but no trader crosses the seas so rapidly. And as they perform the same distance in a shorter time, they can perform it at a cheaper rate.

"The European touches several times at different ports in the course of a long voyage; he loses a good deal of precious time in making the harbor, or in waiting for a favorable wind to leave it; and he pays daily dues to be allowed to remain there. The American starts from Boston to go to purchase tea in China; he arrives at Canton, stays there a few days, and then returns. In less than two years he has sailed as far as the entire circumference of the globe, and he has seen land but once. It is true that during a voyage of eight or ten months he has drunk brackish water and lived upon salt meat; that he has been in a continual contest with the sea, with disease, and with a tedious existence; but upon his return he can sell a pound of his tea for a half-penny less than the English merchant, and his purpose is accomplished."

--Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America"

http://resources.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/Jurisprudence/E...

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#244

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any ma…

Also Nazi Germany. German universities just tanked while many American universities became the home of Jews fleeing Nazism.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#245
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet's didn't really know how to properly make use of "their" Germans though, at least for working on concrete projects. Only very few designs of German teams actually made it into production (like the turboprop engines used in the Tu-95: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95 ), but the Soviets never trusted their Germans enough to really integrate them longterm with Russian teams, instead the goal was to…

Easy to explain because the German fascists made a perfect match with the American fascists, whilst Russian communists had a problem with German fascists, plus under Stalin/Berisha everybody had a problem, also communist Germans and communist Russians. They nevertheless built up the Russian rocket and nuclear program. In the US the germans could build the rocket program by their own without much US interference, unti…

Could you please elaborate on how "American fascists" are playing a role here? Sounds far fetched.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#246
post #245
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy to explain because the German fascists made a perfect match with the American fascists, whilst Russian communists had a problem with German fascists, plus under Stalin/Berisha everybody had a problem, also communist Germans and communist Russians. They nevertheless built up the Russian rocket and nuclear program. In the US the germans could build the rocket program by their own without much US interference, unti…

Could you please elaborate on how "American fascists" are playing a role here? Sounds far fetched.

I think s/he is hinting at the fact that many Europeans and Americans believed that Hitler had the right idea about race and religion. Eugenics was a big thing in the US between WW1 and WW2. I also remember reading that one of the main reasons the ivy-leagues decided to change its admission system from money and meritocracy to the "search for all round candidate" also partially stemmed from anti-semitism - all the essay and interview bullshit that we see today was created to find reasons to reject the "wrong kind". Some old Harvard or Yale (don't remember which) admission applications of candidates rejected even had hand written notes, "looks too much like a jew". ( https://www.businessinsider.in/education/harvard-is-being-ac... ).

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#247
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your explanation fits into what he described, point 3 & 4. You're trying to justify why taking risks isn't required.

It doesn't need justification, but for outsiders it might need explanations. There is no value in risk in itself.

True, but you seem biased against any risk at all, which if endemic explains part of the disparity.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#248
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do US engineering programs actually require foreign languages and other liberal arts coursework? That wasn't the case at UVA or VT in the 90s.

Yes, most U.S. universities require a broad range of subjects outside of one's chosen major. This is a good thing in my book. You have your whole life to develop an ever-narrowing level of specialization.

No disagreement here. But then my degree is in economics, not engineering.

IIRC, UVA's engineering curriculum didn't require foreign language, had it's own writing course, most of the remaining cross-over outside engineering was hard science, with a small number of gen-ed electives (maybe 1/year or 1/semester?).

Compared to my Econ degree, which required 2 years of language, 2 semesters of writing, a mix of hard science and math, and somewhere around 4 gen-ed courses per year.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#249
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't need justification, but for outsiders it might need explanations. There is no value in risk in itself.

True, but you seem biased against any risk at all, which if endemic explains part of the disparity.

More like biased against high risk, low reward constructions. What is considered a low risk with a potential high reward in some places has the inverse in other places.

For example, taking a high risk of attempting to create a unicorn startup for the low reward of having more money isn't really worth it here. That's because the barrier at which point 'more money' makes your life 'better' is much lower. Same goes for prestige, it doesn't really get you all that much here.

Together, that means that taking larger risks doesn't really have a lot of benefits in general, unless you personally enjoy it.

This is different form the need to have a 'big' change requiring a 'big' risk in order to make your life measurably better (monetarily, prestige, perceived power, or otherwise).

There are endeavours that pose significant risk, but have a significant reward to match; think ITER and CERN; it is a considerable effort and monetary investment without knowing what the true outcome will be. All you know ahead of time is that something will come out of it. (while those two aren't exactly comparable; a single-purpose project vs. an organisation with multiple projects; it's about the concept of risk, investment and possible outcomes or returns)

Say a particle accelerator take a lot of time, labour and money and can be used to make discoveries, but you don't know what discoveries. That means you have a huge investment but no guarantee that you will be able to produce something that has the value of the investment (or more). But there is the chance of significant scientific discovery, which makes it a project that countries are willing to take the risk for.

Expanding on my own word salad: perhaps personally I'd say that in my environment collecting money or 'stuff' in itself isn't seen as valuable, but being able to maintain a good life and have a fulfilling life is. At the same time, in a larger context, things like discovery, exploration and research are valued as well, but boasting or broadcasting about it isn't seen as very valuable. I suppose that also makes for an environment where space exploration is seen as a good thing but ironically without a big PR machine it can't be funded. It's like having a goal without the means.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seriously think that university research in the US is largely funded or driven by companies? This is utterly wrong. *Edit*. The question is why the united states has the "best research universities". That is a very general-level question and the Parent made a very general, and very wrong, claim in response. Regardless of whether some specific fields might have more industrial funding than others, it's easy to goo…

> You seriously think that university research in the US is largely funded or driven by companies? This is utterly wrong. Slow down there bud. Where did I say that? Unless you’re talking about AI/ML, then yes, university labs receive more from companies, than government funding agencies.

> Slow down there bud. Where did I say that?

If I miserepresented you, then I am sorry.

> Unless you’re talking about AI/ML, then yes, university labs receive more from companies, than government funding agencies.

This is simply untrue. Companies comprise less than 10% of overall university research funding, and AI/ML is far from dominant. It's easy to verify this.

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