Why the United States has the best research universities • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#191

Post by cycomanic » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

practicalpants wrote: post #153

rossdavidh wrote: post #117

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any ma…

This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education lev…

I think like usual reality is more complex. The reason why America became such a economic powerhouse by the beginning of the 20th century was clearly the large scale immigration to a land that was generally considered the land of opportunities, without the crust of established economic structures in Europe. Someone from any social background could make it there. Due to this background there was a lot of aversion to "elites" forming which I have seen given as reasons for the high top income tax and the strong actions against monopolies . Now the growth founded also by large scale displacement and killing of the native population and slavery would also have contributed.

I don't think that alone would have made the US into the superpower it is today, in particular in terms of science. That was clearly a result of the two world wars that devastated Europe. If you look at the scientific discoveries the US really became the powerhouse after/during WW2.

It's somewhat ironic that the US which was founded on escaping the large "unfair" inequalities of old Europe and a strong anti-establishment/anti-elite basis has since become a beacon of a new elite/establishment and inequality. The "anti elitism" that was always part of the US psyche is now almost completely about intellectual elite (scientific/academic elite) not economic elite.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#192

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:14 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #186

zmmmmm wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often think this factor is vastly under estimated. The US geography is almost the perfect design for building a prosperous and stable society. A massive breadbasket of fertile interior flanked on each side by coastline with access to trade with all corners of the earth but still isolated and highly defensible. Every natural resource you could possibly need available in abundance without ever needing reliance on ext…

Japan has none of this, and yet is highly successful.

But it's not number one, perhaps party because of geography too (size of country, lack of natural resources, location).

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#193

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #174

sk5t wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

The Soviet Union had much more natural resources available.

But not a temperate climate over its whole geography or stable government structures over the last 200 years.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#194

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:18 AM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #192

WalterBright wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has none of this, and yet is highly successful.

But it's not number one, perhaps party because of geography too (size of country, lack of natural resources, location).

Relative to their size, they have done extremely well. The lack of natural resources has not held them back, nor has the location, lack of rivers, etc.

The feature that matters is a free market.

The best thing a poor country can do for its citizens is move towards a free market economy.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#195

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #193

WalterBright wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet Union had much more natural resources available.

But not a temperate climate over its whole geography or stable government structures over the last 200 years.

The USSR was stable for 70 years. Long enough.

The problem was lack of free markets. Free markets are the common thread among successful economic powers. Not population, not resources, not rivers, etc.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#196

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:23 AM UTC

codethief wrote: post #140

bla3 wrote: post #8

The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere. For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)

This. I hope I won't offend anyone here but there's a story that seems quite appropriate: When I was still living in the US, an acquaintance of mine once asked me, "So don't you think the United States are the best country in the world?" I was absolutely baffled. Putting aside for a moment that the US clearly did not rank "best" on so many scales, the question (to me, as a European) didn't even make much sense in the…

They're talking about an absolute/total sense instead of relative to per-capita situation.

If we forget that the US has more people, they are the best at many things. Science, GDP, sports, and so on. That's probably what he means when he says "best".

It'd be like calling Google or Apple the "best" tech companies even though you can make more money at some small startups. It's true in some sense (they're the biggest, dominant, etc), not necessarily true in the per-capita sense (I might have a better time somewhere else).

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#197

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:47 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #195

fighterpilot wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not a temperate climate over its whole geography or stable government structures over the last 200 years.

The USSR was stable for 70 years. Long enough. The problem was lack of free markets. Free markets are the common thread among successful economic powers. Not population, not resources, not rivers, etc.

Agreed on the free markets point. Anything else is a nonstarter.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#198

Post by randomsquared » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:48 AM UTC

jltsiren wrote: post #137

User23 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed EU CS grads are on average much stronger scientifically than US ones. With notable exceptions, the typical US undergraduate curriculum is more of a trade school. That’s fine of course, but definitely not the skillset needed for novel research or even properly applying recent research. Edit: Apparently I’ve struck a nerve. But this has been my experience working and hiring at two of the FAANGs. The teams…

I can think of a few reasons: In many European countries, the five-year master's is still seen as the primary undergraduate degree, at least in universities. (There may be other more applied institutes with shorter degrees.) When most students are expected to graduate with a master's instead of bachelor's, the program is likely to be more theoretical. Elite schools are a foreign concept in many European countries. In…

I am not impressed with european masters alumni and I have worked in europe and the usa, it definitely seemed like it was the bachelors of europe, everyone had it.. I believe it is more difficult to get into a masters program in the usa.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#199

Post by asdff » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:49 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #130

rossdavidh wrote: post #117

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any ma…

It wasn't just the U.S. receiving that talent. Latin America, particularly Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile also saw 10s of millions of European immigrants.[1] Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, etc, as well as Japanese and Chinese. Canada and Australia also saw significant migration. So the mere fact of the emigration of European talent doesn't quite answer the question. The role of European conflict driving emigra…

I think a huge fact is simply the massive population and tax base. A lot of academic research is funded by the federal government. Most countries simply do not have the population or means to afford such a wide variety of directed research programs as the NSF, NIH, DOE, NOAA, USDA, etc., not to mention research grants from defense agencies. Academics from other countries regularly move their careers here to get research funding, we don't even produce enough local talent for some fields to meet the need for research.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#200

Post by Aerroon » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:50 AM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #191

practicalpants wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education lev…

I think like usual reality is more complex. The reason why America became such a economic powerhouse by the beginning of the 20th century was clearly the large scale immigration to a land that was generally considered the land of opportunities, without the crust of established economic structures in Europe. Someone from any social background could make it there. Due to this background there was a lot of aversion to "…

>It's somewhat ironic that the US which was founded on escaping the large "unfair" inequalities of old Europe and a strong anti-establishment/anti-elite basis has since become a beacon of a new elite/establishment and inequality.

It's probably one of those cyclical things in life. Your former greatness ends up becoming a burden that keeps growing. Eventually it'll become so heavy that things fall apart. From the ashes rises a new greatness that eventually...