Why the United States has the best research universities • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#181

Post by pdonis » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

freddie_mercury wrote: post #149

sk5t wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

Those "tremendous natural resources" were all the result of the Indian wars. America was at war nearly constantly expanding its empire from 1775-1865. Surely you didn't think north America was terra nullis or that the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources to European colonists? Anglo-Powhatan Wars (3 separate wars), Pequot War, Kieft's War, Peach Tree War, Esopus Wars, King Philip's War, Tuscar…

> the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources

The native Americans didn't even know about most of the natural resources, and what they did know about, they mostly didn't make any use of. That's a big part of why they ended up losing the wars against the European settlers: the latter actually turned those resources into wealth.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#182

Post by cycomanic » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

The quote below struck me as odd:

"The emergence of it [tenure] in the US, in fact, helped place the US on good footing to compete at research with Europe, which does not have that institution as much."

because AFAIK many European universities had something like tenure already. In Germany (like today) professors were government employees that could not be fired. I think this had been the case since Humbold and was part of having academic freedom as a pilar of the system. I think both French and British universities had a similar concept. So it is weird that tenure is being painted as something special to the US.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#183

Post by tehlike » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:44 AM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #182

The quote below struck me as odd: "The emergence of it [tenure] in the US, in fact, helped place the US on good footing to compete at research with Europe, which does not have that institution as much." because AFAIK many European universities had something like tenure already. In Germany (like today) professors were government employees that could not be fired. I think this had been the case since Humbold and was pa…

Maybe they are highlighting the competition aspect.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#184

Post by zmmmmm » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

sk5t wrote: post #139

throwaway9980 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is also the explanation for American success in the 20th century. The United States as we know it is, like all empires, built on the spoils of war. The United States was able to capture the best and brightest scientists. These people were brought into a system whose structure and demands were dictated by the needs of a growing government and military. This is the fuel that drove American exceptionalism.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

I often think this factor is vastly under estimated. The US geography is almost the perfect design for building a prosperous and stable society. A massive breadbasket of fertile interior flanked on each side by coastline with access to trade with all corners of the earth but still isolated and highly defensible. Every natural resource you could possibly need available in abundance without ever needing reliance on external countries. If you were sitting down to a game like SimCity and constructing a country you'd probably make something like that, but here it was "by accident" just ripe for the industrial revolution to take hold and transform it.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#185

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #179

WalterBright wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The slave economy of the Confederacy was literally burned to the ground by 1865. The legacy of that was poverty in the south.

Repetitive flooding of the Mississippi didn’t help much either. Some natural disasters are hard to come back from.

I didn't realize the Missisouppi only started flooding after 1865.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#186

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #184

sk5t wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

I often think this factor is vastly under estimated. The US geography is almost the perfect design for building a prosperous and stable society. A massive breadbasket of fertile interior flanked on each side by coastline with access to trade with all corners of the earth but still isolated and highly defensible. Every natural resource you could possibly need available in abundance without ever needing reliance on ext…

Japan has none of this, and yet is highly successful.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#187

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #176

rajin444 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? The post you're replying to is talking about a unique distinction in how 2 societies maintained power.

> That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? There's something to be said for relevance. It may be true for nearly every society, but the amount of relevance varies. The US conquered an astonishing amount of territory in recent history, which makes it relevant.

Much less than the Soviet Union.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#188

Post by koreanguy » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

European talents, advancement in every core technology in earth, the Koreans like Samsung produce Chips but its European Hardware and technology they are building with, Japanese Technologies are 100% based on European patents, NASA is a European project started end of the war.

European research talent has spread to all nations on this earth.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#189

Post by koreanguy » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:05 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #186

zmmmmm wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often think this factor is vastly under estimated. The US geography is almost the perfect design for building a prosperous and stable society. A massive breadbasket of fertile interior flanked on each side by coastline with access to trade with all corners of the earth but still isolated and highly defensible. Every natural resource you could possibly need available in abundance without ever needing reliance on ext…

Japan has none of this, and yet is highly successful.

not really, Japanese have been stealing from western Patents for years

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#190

Post by practicalpants » Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 6:11 AM UTC

orbifold wrote: post #180

practicalpants wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education lev…

This is just factually untrue the GDP of the British empire was much larger than that of the US and in terms of scientific innovation Germany was widely considered to be at the forefront with France and UK as equals. The US was largely a scientific backwater.

I do not know what textbooks you read or economic history lectures you took to reach your conclusion. This is the second half of the 19th C, the US was absolutely dominating the industrial revolution in the era that produced the Carnegies Rockefellers JP Morgans and dozens of others of similar stature. Entire new industries and processes like interchangeable parts, telegraph, petroleum products, railraods, rise of malls/retail, electricity, meat packing, industrial farming, investment banking etc. was all either originating from or reaching heights in the US, which also had the highest patents per capita rate, and an international reputation for a general population that was technically competent for the industrial rev.

(Not to mention the gov was essentially giving away 160 acre plots to anyone who wanted to settle elsewhere, which created intense pressure to mechanize due to menial labor shortages, not to mention a broader based prosperity.)