Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why the United States has the best research universities

aeaweb.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 262 posts

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#151

Post by Zhenya »

birdyrooster wrote: post #147
throwaway9980 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is also the explanation for American success in the 20th century. The United States as we know it is, like all empires, built on the spoils of war. The United States was able to capture the best and brightest scientists. These people were brought into a system whose structure and demands were dictated by the needs of a growing government and military. This is the fuel that drove American exceptionalism.

What drove American exceptionalism in the 20th century was still largely what drove its exceptionalism in the 19th and earlier centuries: chattel slavery and black exploitation. Slavery wasn't phased out immediately after the emancipation proclamation. 1) Slavery was still legal in the north after that signing and 2) states and counties did not enforce the law consistently (e.g. Juneteenth), and 3) criminal justice s…

I see. US was the only country that had slaves and this gave them an unfair advantage ergo they had the best universities.

My brain hurts stringing this logic together. Is that was you're implying?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#152

Post by imgabe »

freyir wrote: post #143
imgabe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been 80 years. No other great scientists were born in Europe in the past 80 years?

Yes, and then they too moved to the US to study or work. Look at any top US university’s STEM faculty? What percentage are native born? It is shockingly low.

I don’t think that’s inconsistent with the article’s narrative that the US succeeded by offering strong incentives and prioritizing research.

If these brilliant people had the option to do this in their home country, they probably would. Moving to a completely different country is difficult.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#153

Post by practicalpants »

rossdavidh wrote: post #117

So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any ma…

This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education levels.

IMO America has been the center of innovation with top universities because it is the top place where talent, globally, wants to go to make their fortune. This has been going on for more than a century.

Whatever country is the top magnet for global talent is going to have the top university systems as well as be the center of the world scene long term. E.g. if another country, say China, wants to succeed into this role it must be the top destination for global talent.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#154

Post by robbmorganf »

codethief wrote: post #140
bla3 wrote: post #8

The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere. For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)

This. I hope I won't offend anyone here but there's a story that seems quite appropriate: When I was still living in the US, an acquaintance of mine once asked me, "So don't you think the United States are the best country in the world?" I was absolutely baffled. Putting aside for a moment that the US clearly did not rank "best" on so many scales, the question (to me, as a European) didn't even make much sense in the…

I'm an American who has lived overseas and I think I have a little more nuance than this, but overall I have the mindset you describe. I think it's kind of like the factoid that ~70-80% of people say they are better than average at driving. In particular, a healthy level of self esteem helps individuals to perform better because they are more confident and take advantage of more opportunities. And I think "USA is the best country" is a myth that creates the self-assuredness that makes Americans come off as "pushy" to everyone else. In many (but not all) businesses, a "pushy" strategy works well financially. So even though it seems illogical, it's not that attributes of America cause it to be "best", but that America thinking of itself as "best" causes it to have certain strategic attributes.

Now, that said, many Americans have a totally unhealthy level of self-esteem that turns into nationalism, white supremacy or near-fascism. TBH I don't know how to deal with those people, but by my logic above it might be more successful to help them consider the impact of their beliefs rather than why their beliefs are wrong.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#155

Post by SR2Z »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #149
sk5t wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

Those "tremendous natural resources" were all the result of the Indian wars. America was at war nearly constantly expanding its empire from 1775-1865. Surely you didn't think north America was terra nullis or that the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources to European colonists? Anglo-Powhatan Wars (3 separate wars), Pequot War, Kieft's War, Peach Tree War, Esopus Wars, King Philip's War, Tuscar…

"Spoils of war" implies some degree of active, ongoing conquest beyond the borders of a nation, but the United States has relied almost entirely on resources within its own borders to gain its power.

You could say that America was "expanding its empire" but there was not substantial growth after the Gadsden purchase and most of the growth of universities (and the bulk of American power) came much later.

Attributing research and production to the spoils of wars fought nearly a century ago is kind of a reach.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#156

Post by wahern »

birdyrooster wrote: post #148
sk5t wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

Oh oh oh I have one: a peculiar form of chattel slavery considered more brutal and unforgiving than that of Rome.

The American South was built on slavery, but slavery was a limiting factor in the economic development of the United States and particularly the South. It's why the industrial revolution happened in the North. And as the largest market for Southern cotton Europe was at least as much a benefactor of American Slavery.

Some people spin this narrative because they think it secures African-Americans' place as legitimate and essential builders of American wealth and power. And sometimes also to justify reparations. But that seems unnecessary and a reactionary narrative that is simply the flip side of the coin of American racist ideology. There's no need to justify, let alone rank, the contributions of any group in the U.S., especially when you do it by reviving horribly misguided economic theories.

Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#157

Post by philzook »

codethief wrote: post #140
bla3 wrote: post #8

The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere. For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)

This. I hope I won't offend anyone here but there's a story that seems quite appropriate: When I was still living in the US, an acquaintance of mine once asked me, "So don't you think the United States are the best country in the world?" I was absolutely baffled. Putting aside for a moment that the US clearly did not rank "best" on so many scales, the question (to me, as a European) didn't even make much sense in the…

America invented many things, but we did not invent nationalism. It is natural to feel good things about a place where all your loved ones live and has a language and culture that is familiar to you. You really think it makes no sense to Europeans to think of their country as "the best"? It seems to some degree to be the character of most right wing parties I'm aware of that this is a part of their stance.

But also, America is the best:

1. American Breakfast

2. American Coffee

3. McDonald's

4. Best Movies

5. Most Jacked

I could go on and on.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#158

Post by spats1990 »

SR2Z wrote: post #155
freddie_mercury wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those "tremendous natural resources" were all the result of the Indian wars. America was at war nearly constantly expanding its empire from 1775-1865. Surely you didn't think north America was terra nullis or that the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources to European colonists? Anglo-Powhatan Wars (3 separate wars), Pequot War, Kieft's War, Peach Tree War, Esopus Wars, King Philip's War, Tuscar…

"Spoils of war" implies some degree of active, ongoing conquest beyond the borders of a nation, but the United States has relied almost entirely on resources within its own borders to gain its power. You could say that America was "expanding its empire" but there was not substantial growth after the Gadsden purchase and most of the growth of universities (and the bulk of American power) came much later. Attributing r…

"Spoils of war" on Wikipedia redirects to "war looting" or: "A prize of war is a piece of enemy property or land seized by a belligerent party during or after a war or battle, typically at sea." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_of_war

>but the United States has relied almost entirely on resources within its own borders to gain its power.

How did it attain control of those resources? You haven't addressed the parent's point.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#159

Post by [deleted] »

klodolph wrote: post #142
sk5t wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on the spoils of war Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.

Those natural resources were acquired by conquering and displacing the original inhabitants.

[deleted]

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#160

Post by birdyrooster »

Zhenya wrote: post #151
birdyrooster wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What drove American exceptionalism in the 20th century was still largely what drove its exceptionalism in the 19th and earlier centuries: chattel slavery and black exploitation. Slavery wasn't phased out immediately after the emancipation proclamation. 1) Slavery was still legal in the north after that signing and 2) states and counties did not enforce the law consistently (e.g. Juneteenth), and 3) criminal justice s…

I see. US was the only country that had slaves and this gave them an unfair advantage ergo they had the best universities. My brain hurts stringing this logic together. Is that was you're implying?

Nope, I never said that. I am saying that the US was able to have the largest economy in the world by the turn of 20th century (before major international conflict) even despite an incredibly bloody civil war because of chattel slavery. Basically, in addition to how they stayed out of international conflict in WW1 and WW2, they had a big tail wind.
Post reply on HN