Java Is Underhyped

Post by Yeroc » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #615

the_gipsy wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Java is arguably one of the most IDE-reliant mainstream languages. It's completely unusable and unergonomic without the myriad of constant code generation and fixing as you write. Treating the IDE like a separate problem is not realistic with java. With e.g. Rust, I can use vim, vscode, whatever floats your boat. > no idea why you'd have to configure "getting the actual logs"? Some genius java logging library, I…

> Well Java is arguably one of the most IDE-reliant mainstream languages. It's completely unusable and unergonomic without the myriad of constant code generation and fixing as you write. True, but with IntelliJ 99% of what you wrote is auto-configured. Eclipse needs a bit of hand-holding, but almost everything you described is due to project configuration. > Some genius java logging library, I can only guess. That's…

Post by erik_seaberg » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #228

erik_seaberg wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java generics just aren't powerful enough to express that a higher order function's exceptions depend on its args, so pretty much everyone has given up on specific checked exceptions.

Yes, they are: @FunctionalInterface public interface ThrowingConsumer { void accept(T value) throws E; } public static void forEach(Collection elements, ThrowingConsumer consumer) throws E { for (T element : elements) { consumer.accept(element); } } There is a significant shortcoming, which is that you can't catch exceptions using the type parameter - this does not compile: public static Optional forEach(Collection e…

Post by throwaway189262 » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

2ion wrote: post #336

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

My main issue is that people writing Java (or for the JVM) because of their backgrounds (app-level code printers) almost completely disregard how that code works on the JVM, at scale, in a highly responsive and/or high throughput service. You can't just use a big, "safe bet" framework like spring, which taints EVERYTHING in that project, write a simple REST API and then do heavy work "in the background" without side…

Post by dnautics » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

kaba0 wrote: post #558

dnautics wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of very reliable distributed systems written in java. But if something goes wrong, and it will, because distributed systems, you will not want to debug it. And because java is very enterprisey, distributed java developers are expensive. You're competing with faang salaries.

What other platform would you want to debug? There is basically no better one then the JVM when it comes to profiling. Exceptions are detailed with stack traces, you can even attach a profiler in production and let it run there because of the negligible overhead with flight recorder. Hell, there are even debuggers that can run your program backwards.

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 8:09 PM UTC

johnnycerberus wrote: post #605

pjmlp wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because he did so much for Python tooling at Google.

Google is hugely invested into Python, especially the data engineering branch. TensorFlow, Jax, etc. Though they will probably get replaced by Dex lang, they even dropped Swift 4 Tensorflow to focus on Dex [1]. The language looks very Pythonic compared to Julia which is a 180-degree turn in terms of language design. [1] https://github.com/google-research/dex-lang