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Why the United States has the best research universities

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Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#51
post #8

The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere. For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)

Again...personal experience but I can speak to this a bit.

I went to an undergraduate university that would be wouldn't be considered highly ranked, but was nationally known in one subfield. I remember being surprised at one point to see a number of articles in major science media sources from MIT about a 'breakthrough'. I read the articles and they were 100% describing something that we did on a regular basis in undergraduate labs. I read the underlying press release and the underlying paper and was decidedly meh but man did it catch a news wave. I've always attributed it to being from MIT more so than truly novel. Not a shot against them...just an observation of the power of self-perpetuating narratives.

I now work at a different internationally ranked 'best researchy type' university. The research is better for a lot of reasons. The ability to attract the best people helps, but that comes from the reputation of having the best people and the resources to attract the best people. That is intermingled with the resources to have support, PR, media relations, and the brand name attraction for grad students.

We have pretty much the same distribution of undergrad intellect as other engineering schools I have worked with. It skew more academic and less practical...I'll be honest if I was a VC I would look at other universities for the next founder types. But the resources and money available for students to pursue entrepreneurship are outsized compared to the talent.

But the myths about our excellence are pervasive - and drive behaviors from people who have no basis for actual evidence. It means we get students brand shopping and not wanting to do the work (we literally had a case of an international student being expelled for the person in classes not actually being the enrolled student).

I don't think this article is wrong per se but the virtuous circle argument is inseparable from the self-perpetuating circle one. And I am unsurprised that the American Economic Association isn't talking about that piece. Objective functions are great, feedback loops are also an element of a control system.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#52
post #8

The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere. For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)

Gosh, had I earned a dollar every time I heard someone in various US corporate environments declare something to be "amazing", "fantastic" when the thing in question was ... vaguely interesting.

Over-emphasis is definitely and American trait and it leave precious little room in the language to aptly describe the really good stuff

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#53
post #2

Research focus in US and EU seems a bit different. Europe produces a lot of high quality science. Research in US is on the other hand increasingly application-focused (something that EU is not very good at). This is my observation as a former researcher who has experience in both regions; I don’t have references. It’s partly driven by culture, and economic system. The strong public system in Europe supports longer te…

I don’t know why anyone should believe you. Can you source some concrete facts if any? This is a provocative comment ready to start flame wars. Please tell specifics and not paint broad brushstrokes to flame the fires. I’m sorry to flag your comment. Edit: One source we can look at the awards given to fundamental research. They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc. This contradicts the popular gener…

> They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc

This isn't really clear. For example, EU has generated about twice the fields medal recipients as the US. That's reasonable in terms of roughly equivalent populations, but does beg the question that if someone grows up in Europe, trains and spends early career in Europe, but ends up a professor in USA before being given a Nobel prize, where do you count the result?

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#54
post #14

Lets not fool ourselves. First and foremost the money is here and the business environment (capitalism) is the most favorable than any other region of the world.

It hasn’t always been this way. Prior to the 1900s the wealth was outside the US. Capitalism existed in the world before the US, possibly in more extreme forms. It seems like you’re discounting the possibility the US education system & government contributed to the current economic situation. To what do you attribute the change?

This article best describes what I've trying to convey:

  https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/who_pays
And I think it will answer your question.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#55
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could this be due to EU universities studying specifically one subject while US universities require credits in other topics like Languages?

Do US engineering programs actually require foreign languages and other liberal arts coursework? That wasn't the case at UVA or VT in the 90s.

Yes, most U.S. universities require a broad range of subjects outside of one's chosen major. This is a good thing in my book. You have your whole life to develop an ever-narrowing level of specialization.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#56
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed EU CS grads are on average much stronger scientifically than US ones. With notable exceptions, the typical US undergraduate curriculum is more of a trade school. That’s fine of course, but definitely not the skillset needed for novel research or even properly applying recent research. Edit: Apparently I’ve struck a nerve. But this has been my experience working and hiring at two of the FAANGs. The teams…

Could this be due to EU universities studying specifically one subject while US universities require credits in other topics like Languages?

I don't think so, or at least it's not necessary. A lot of my CS classes (US state university) were just kind of watered down so weaker students could pass. In short, grade inflation.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#57
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rings true... there’s a tendency to exaggerate or maximalize in the US, certainly at least in the commercial realm.

In this vein [but slightly off topic], can anyone point me to high profile megacap EU startups? The only one that comes to mind is Spotify. I was speaking with some people the other day and probably due to a NA centric focus we were at a lack of well branded EU starts up that had made it similar to US ones.

Klarna, Revolut, and Hellofresh (German founding I believe) immediately pop to mind but I'm sure there are more if I did some searching.

The recent trips to Europe I have been so intrigued by how different the apps people use for many common commercial tasks are to the ones I use at home. I'm assuming there are logistical, cultural, or compliance reasons at play but I can't speak to it.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at university research labs, and see where they get their funding from. Companies tend to fund applied research. Funding in Europe, whether academic or industry motivated, is simply lacking across all scientific, engineering, and social science disciplines.

You seriously think that university research in the US is largely funded or driven by companies? This is utterly wrong. *Edit*. The question is why the united states has the "best research universities". That is a very general-level question and the Parent made a very general, and very wrong, claim in response. Regardless of whether some specific fields might have more industrial funding than others, it's easy to goo…

> is largely funded or driven by companies

GP never implied it was the largest contributor, and yes, depending on your field a significant amount of funding does come from the private sector.

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#59
post #24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn’t always been this way. Prior to the 1900s the wealth was outside the US. Capitalism existed in the world before the US, possibly in more extreme forms. It seems like you’re discounting the possibility the US education system & government contributed to the current economic situation. To what do you attribute the change?

Didn’t the rise of the US as a superpower mainly came down to financial gains during World War 1?

Pretty much. Their main geopolitical rivals in Europe imploded thanks to WWI and WWII. Had Europe not levelled itself, the USA likely would never have caught up in terms of economic superiority, and the USA would've remained a strongly isolationist middle power.

(Now keep in mind that the prospect of a peaceful 20th century Europe is unrealistic. Europe was a warring tinderbox at the time, and even if WWI and WWII had not happened, a conflict of similar scale likely would've broken out in Europe regardless. Any number of destructive conflicts could've broken out, including a Soviet invasion of Germany and Western Europe. In short, it's really hard to construct a timeline where the USA wouldn't have been catapulted into superpower status due to war in Europe)

Re: Why the United States has the best research universities

#60
What a vacuous article; even for one that actually takes a look at the history -- the "how did this come about?" It's as if it's been blanched, and the result taken as all there is to know---a skin-deep truth.

The U.S does not have "the best research universities," it simply has the most "prestigious ones," that continue to survive and thrive due to centuries of compounding network effects (and a little of help from the 19th century American middle class and a lot of help from the wholesale philanthropy of our robber barons).

Research had been considered a dilettante endeavor, meant only for the betters, until those lower down the ladder decided "I want that," and went off to try and "learn" their way into becoming cultured (see: gentlemen).

And not even a single mention of how the real "university revolution" (where being an academic is now a middle class job, instead of simply an upper class past-time), were spear-headed by Fred Taylor and Fred Gates. Both of these preachers-turned-family-office-managers were vital for the adoption and expansion of "scientific" and "medical" schools of thought (in order to fuel the industrial and allopathic medical industries -- to make more money and get more bodies).

Skin-deep this article is.

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