FTP is 50 years old • Hacker News Board

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#51

Post by chasil » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

gogopuppygogo wrote: post #43

dominiek wrote: post #39

Amazing. I never thought I would say this, but I actually implemented an FTP server in 2020. This was needed to support firmware updates to specific hardware (Electric Vehicle charging stations). Apparently embedded software developers choose FTP whenever a spec doesn't specify how binary file transfers should work. It was kind of amusing getting FTP to work in a modern cloud environment. I run a single Kubernetes po…

I’m just glad they used ftp over tftp. Maybe someday they’ll use FTPS but I have my doubts it’ll ever catch on with the popularity of SFTP.

These standards are so very different, and they don't scale well.

TFTP is actually over UDP, guarantees only one data packet on the wire at any one time (no sliding window), does not support listing a remote directory, and is extreme in simplicity.

FTPS has such arbitrary controls for TLS optional versus required status over control and data channels that it is easy to misconfigure.

SFTP lacks two key features (amidst jump host and other scope creep frenzy), anonymous mode and URL support in a browser.

A new file transfer protocol, restricted to DJB ciphers a la Wireguard, able to run over TCP or UDP would likely be best. If Chrome and Safari both added browser clients, the server world would likely dump most FTP the next day.

https://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#52

Post by skeeter2020 » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

peter303 wrote: post #23

goda90 wrote: post #3

What's the oldest protocol that's still regularly used?

British naval signal and letter flags codified 1817. Morse code from 1840s. Ham radio still uses it when signal took weak fir voice. Proficiency was required for a ham license until 2006.

Braille is originally from a similar timeframe and carries six bits. Modern enhancements have focused on the protocol above the payload to make it more efficient.

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#53

Post by andrewfromx » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

the one big mistake the original protocol made: when sending a file it just starts streaming bytes without first sending the total size of the file. Makes it impossible to know, did the transfer complete 100%? Hence you have to be able to resume a partial transfer.

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#54

Post by toast0 » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #19

So, do we still have to give our email to enter in Anonymous mode? And can we use PASV?

You can just put webmaster@ (no domain) and that almost always works it there's any check. Maybe ftpmaster@ would be more appropriate though.

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#55

Post by jvolkman » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

theflyinghorse wrote: post #7

The worst part is not that its 50 years old. The worst part is that some places still INSIST on using it. For instance I have to deal with FOTA and it's a pain.

It's still pretty huge in the enterprise behind-the-scenes world of EDI exchange. I work in the railroad industry and use it pretty much daily (in addition to sftp, ftps, and other protocols).

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#56

Post by tyingq » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

goda90 wrote: post #3

What's the oldest protocol that's still regularly used?

If we're limiting it to "used by computers", and "actually used in some meaningful non-hobby volume" maybe the T1/DS1 TDMA protocol? That dates back to 1962.

Or maybe morse code counts as a protocol?, Still around in VOR (VHF omnidirectional range) and NDB (Non-directional beacon) in the aviation world.

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#57

Post by jbverschoor » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

ajb wrote: post #6

From rfc801 (transition from NCP to TCP/IP) : "FTP: This is specified in RFC 765. It is very similar to the FTP used with the NCP. The primary differences are that in addition to the changes for Telnet, that the data channel is limited to 8-bit bytes so FTP features to use other transmission byte sizes are eliminated." So FTP is older than the standardisation of byte size :-)

I thought a byte ment “by eight”

What’s a nibble of a byte is 8bits

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#58

Post by chasil » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #38

It's been about a decade since I've used ftp. I'm trying to remember if there is anything it provides that sftp/scp does not? I remember the egress ports being a pain, and encrypting the traffic required ssl certs and being even more of a pain.

The FTP protocol has support for this:

    $ /usr/bin/ftp
    ftp> help
    Commands may be abbreviated.  Commands are:
    ...proxy...

While I've never been able to make that work correctly, it supposedly allows transfers between two remote hosts (all cleartext of course). The logins work, but the gets and puts don't.

It didn't seem worth the time to set up, and similar functionality has been added to SSH file transfer.

The SITE command can also run arbitrary programs on the server (becoming something like an rsh), which will never be added to SFTP. I've actually written a couple web applications that drive a VAX with "site spawn" and some DCL.

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#59

Post by rsync » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

goda90 wrote: post #3

What's the oldest protocol that's still regularly used?

"What's the oldest protocol that's still regularly used?"

People are answering with old telephone codes and British naval signals, etc.

You should be thinking:

- The muslim call to prayers.

- The affirmation of faith, as it is spoken in mass or (protestant) church ... or the first and second readings, followed by a Gospel reading.

- The Jewish rite of circumcision (which is, among other things, almost certainly a signaling mechanism).

Re: FTP is 50 years old

#60

Post by outside1234 » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

jbverschoor wrote: post #57

ajb wrote: post #6

From rfc801 (transition from NCP to TCP/IP) : "FTP: This is specified in RFC 765. It is very similar to the FTP used with the NCP. The primary differences are that in addition to the changes for Telnet, that the data channel is limited to 8-bit bytes so FTP features to use other transmission byte sizes are eliminated." So FTP is older than the standardisation of byte size :-)

I thought a byte ment “by eight” What’s a nibble of a byte is 8bits

A nibble is half a byte or 4 bits.