Bitcoin miners are buying power plants • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#461

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

propertymagnate wrote: post #451

shawnz wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, which seems reasonable to me. It would be more interesting if a global monetary system could use less than a bunch of casinos. (And maybe that will even happen with the adoption of proof-of-stake)

I don't have any of the calculations, but I would argue that we probably have one and it is the fiat global monetary system. If bitcoin was a proof of stake and was the global monetary system I would have to re-think my opinions - at the moment it just seems like a cross between the worst aspects of Wall Street, the cookie clicker game, and the AI Paperclip Maximiser problem.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#462

Post by nthot » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #243

lottin wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that a small minority of people actually have a use (legitimate or not) for bitcoin, but as far as the general public is concerned this is not the case.

And appropriately it represents a small minority of energy use (~0.6%)

0.6% is orders of magnitude larger than the percentage of people who have a legitimate use case. In my opinion it's not that coin does not have legitimate uses, it's that the cost of providing those uses far outweighs the benefit by design.

The current increase in value and ramping up of energy use is not due to an increase in the usefulness of the coin, but instead on a renewed interest in the game of hot potato that is speculation.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#463

Post by carlsborg » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #430

carlsborg wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can and already do regulate energy production. True. If BTCUSD goes to $1m AND you have strict global regulation banning carbon energy, it will be a powerful incentive to harness green energy, which will be good for mankind in the long run.

Has there ever been strict global regulation of anything?

Sure, CFC emissions. And coal fired power plants are harder to hide.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#464

Post by shawnz » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

propertymagnate wrote: post #451

shawnz wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, which seems reasonable to me. It would be more interesting if a global monetary system could use less than a bunch of casinos. (And maybe that will even happen with the adoption of proof-of-stake)

I don't have any of the calculations, but I would argue that we probably have one and it is the fiat global monetary system. If bitcoin was a proof of stake and was the global monetary system I would have to re-think my opinions - at the moment it just seems like a cross between the worst aspects of Wall Street, the cookie clicker game, and the AI Paperclip Maximiser problem.

I would caution you to make your own judgements with such a hyped technology as cryptocurrencies. Everyone tends to have strong opinions about the way it "seems", both positive and negative.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#465

Post by iso1631 » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #395

bransonf wrote: post #94

It’s a simple equation: So long as there is more money in mining BTC than there is cost in energy to mine it, mining will proceed. No entity in the world can control the price of crypto. But, we can and already do regulate energy production. I think we need a carbon tax, that is specifically a financial disincentive towards any means of energy production that directly pollutes the atmosphere. Seriously, what are the…

> I think we need a carbon tax, that is specifically a financial disincentive towards any means of energy production that directly pollutes the atmosphere. Then by all means lets ban video games which are an extreme waste of electricity polluting the atmosphere for no good reason. You see how this reasonning can go?

Let say carbon tax of $200/ton, or 20c/kg.

US co2 generation on the grid is about 0.5kg per kwH, so would add 10c/kWh.

That means that your PS5, using 200 Watts, costs an extra 2c per hour to play -- on top of the existing 15c/hr for normal electric costs.

A single bitcoin transaction of 780kWh would cost $78 and a transatlantic flight about $300, or $1.20 to a gallon of gas.

Make the tax $2k/ton, it raises your PS5 cost from 15c/hr to 25c/hr and a bitcoin transaction to $780 and take transatlantic flights back to the cost of the 70s

That sounds fine to me. The energy used by a PS5 is insignificant.

> You see how this reasonning can go?

Yes I do, it sounds really exciting.

The money raised would be spent on carbon reduction (which gives a financial incentive to Brazil to not chop down rainforest, or pays for other forms of carbon capture), and disincentivises carbon usage. Brilliant.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#466

Post by MrMan » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

wolfretcrap wrote: post #303

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response to you is quite simple. Unlike virtually every other technology that's been created (like computers, cars, smartphones, etc), Bitcoin simply exists in a form where the primary purpose is to waste energy, and the system inherently incentivizes it. Also, the issue of bad building insulation does not in any manner invalidate my concern with the growing problem of Bitcoin now and in the future . Bad building…

Bitcoin does something very important which creating something that people trust without someone in background diluting value of your holdings. If that takes a lot to achieve in terms of energy well it speaks volumes about the society we live in

So if something really harmful speaks volumes that is ok?

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#467

Post by MrMan » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

aerique wrote: post #270

jude- wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, let me Google that for you. First, let's assume for a moment that this February 2021 CNBC source [1] is correct in that Bitcoin mining produces 36.94 megatons of CO2 per year. The original source the CNBC article cited can be found here: [3] (which currently pegs Bitcoin at 47.62 megatons/year). According to the EPA, the US economy alone produced 6,558 megatons of CO2 [2] in 2019 (i.e. under pre-COVID emissions…

I'd like to add electronics on standby to your list ("could be as high as 10% of total energy use"): • https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/climate-change/ene... As I've tried to argue with others before: I doubt climate change and energy waste are at the top of the agenda of these people so wound up against Bitcoin's energy waste otherwise we'd see a lot more people • switching to a vegetarian, let alone vegan,…

I do all that

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#468

Post by hooande » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

bradstewart wrote: post #458

Webox wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your argument. Bitcoin is very very volatile and just because it went up the last x years, doesn't make it stable or trustworthy. My money in my bank is very safe and it doesn't cost me anything. The inflation itself is a systematic thing and should affect bitcoin equaly. When corona came, i was looking at the stock market and was surprised how many people left it. It doesn't make much sense to distrist t…

I'm assuming you're in the US/Europe/somewhere with a stable currency. Places like Argentina that have had serious devaluation of currency do not see money in their bank accounts as "safe". Bitcoin can provide a way for e.g. Argentinians to get their money into other currencies when the government is actively preventing that through "standard" mechanisms. It's safe (er, safer) from that perspective.

This isn't a very good use case for bitcoin. It's very easy to buy coins, but getting your money out is as difficult as various governments want it to be. Most of the major exchanges have KYC and anti money laundering laws that can make it hard to transfer large amounts of any crypto into a spendable currency.

If a government is preventing people from transferring money through standard mechanisms, it's only a matter of time until they prevent them from using crypto to do that. If the best use is circumventing the law, it isn't much of a currency at all

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#469

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #237

zepto wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that they wouldn’t be trying to turn electricity into money and might be making money some other way?

Making money without using electricity? I suppose that’s not impossible, but it sounds unlikely at any appreciable scale.

Turning electricity into money is different from using some electricity while you make money.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#470

Post by fsflover » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

klibertp wrote: post #368

wolfretcrap wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That said, gold technically exists already to meet this in my humble opinion as a proper hedge. Moving gold from one country to another country on your is difficult. Storing gold properly without getting robbed is difficult. Try moving $5million dollar worth gold and you'll realize the advantage which bitcoin brings.

> Try moving $5million dollar worth gold If I read the price correctly that would be something like 80kg. I can't be bothered to dig deeper, but that would be just a few gold bars, I suspect. Not very hard to handle, IMO...

Except you will be robbed in a second.