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Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

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Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#101

Post by wayneftw »

idnefju wrote: post #68
rbut wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s assuming all current Mac developers decide to switch to ARM macs. I (Mac developer of 13 years) have switched away to linux. I’m sure there are others like me.

Not for me, the user experience for Linux based PCs hasn’t changed in 10 years. That is it still not as good as as macOS.

Are macs still shipping with severely outdated CLI tools? 10 years ago, Mac users just got the ability to resize a window by any edge or corner... How's that really good window management system working out for ya?

It's shocking that the Mac UX is so good that 75% of the developers out there would rather not use one... Meanwhile developers are the group that uses them more than the general population so both groups obviously disagree that Macs have a good UX at all lul.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#102

Post by DougBTX »

mojo982 wrote: post #100
pjmlp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Containers don't have anything to do with reproducible builds, docker advocates just happened to misuse it for that purpose.

Do they? Having a stable starting point for the “machine” you’re building on contributes to having reproducible builds does it not?

Maybe kinda, but really you'd want reproducible cross-compilation too, so a reproducible build should produce the same binary regardless of which machine it is run on.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#103

Post by tyingq »

my123 wrote: post #99
tyingq wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has come up already. The M1 does thread local storage in a different way than other aarch64 CPUs. http://www.jakubkonka.com/2021/01/21/llvm-tls-apple-silicon....

It’s not the M1 chip by itself, but rather is macOS/iOS.

I think it's both. Mimalloc had to use a different register: https://github.com/microsoft/mimalloc/issues/343

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#104

Post by mdaniel »

rvz wrote: post #34
sneak wrote: post #19

Reminder: unlike the docker command line tool, and the dockerd server container management tool, the Docker Desktop products are a) not free software, b) not even source available, and c) send a lot of sensitive data about your system back to Docker Inc without consent. I didn’t realize this for a while myself, as the docker CLI tools are all free software. The “Desktop” variants are not, and embed spyware.

is there an alternative to the "Desktop" for Docker we should be using?

Depends on how much of a replacement one is expecting (I guess it's like all commercial versus Open Source software in that way), but docker machine and VirtualBox are a low drama version. There used to be a working setup that used xhyve (on top of Hypervisor.framework) but I had woes that I don't recall the details about right now and even when it did work the networking was much harder to reason about than with VirtualBox

The other advantage of docker machine is that you can also ask for a cloud instance to run dockerd, and that's actually how gitlab-runner does it

Replacing Docker for Mac's kubernetes support is done with either kind or minikube depending on ones desire to have on a modern version versus "yeah, yeah, just run the VM and make kubectl work"

None of those setups have any provided gui/menubar widget support, or similar hand holding, which is why I started this the way I did

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#105

Post by evilduck »

wayneftw wrote: post #101
idnefju wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for me, the user experience for Linux based PCs hasn’t changed in 10 years. That is it still not as good as as macOS.

Are macs still shipping with severely outdated CLI tools? 10 years ago, Mac users just got the ability to resize a window by any edge or corner... How's that really good window management system working out for ya? It's shocking that the Mac UX is so good that 75% of the developers out there would rather not use one... Meanwhile developers are the group that uses them more than the general population so both groups o…

Windows is still shipping without CLI tools and Linux distros also mostly don't ship with build-essential or headers, -dev packages or every language toolchain. Every system requires setup and MacOS shipping with older GPL2 packages puts it squarely between the two alternatives in terms of setup and configuration cost.

As for the WM differences, its just a different way of thinking about it, or a preference. None of them really bother me, personally.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#106

Post by thinkharderdev »

rvz wrote: post #34
sneak wrote: post #19

Reminder: unlike the docker command line tool, and the dockerd server container management tool, the Docker Desktop products are a) not free software, b) not even source available, and c) send a lot of sensitive data about your system back to Docker Inc without consent. I didn’t realize this for a while myself, as the docker CLI tools are all free software. The “Desktop” variants are not, and embed spyware.

is there an alternative to the "Desktop" for Docker we should be using?

I use minikube for local k8s dev but you could also use it as basically a local Linux VM for running docker. It is (slightly) less ergonomic than Docker for Mac but not my much. For the most part I use the qinikube VM for everything docker related since it's annoying to run both a VM for Docker Desktop and for qinikube.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#107

Post by 1_player »

appletrotter wrote: post #92
1_player wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cross-compiling isn't fun. If my next startup is powered by a high performance C++ core that it's built on x86, you bet I'm going to run it on x86 instead of trying to cross-compile it for ARM, for which benefit by the way? Idem if I run ARM locally, I'll deploy on ARM. Of course this does not apply to interpreted languages or any of the modern languages (Go, Rust, Zig) that make cross compiling _somewhat_ easier.

a lot of tech stacks aren’t going to require cross compiling though

To be honest I think the desktop question is misleading. x86 to most is a known quantity, there is very few specific reasons to choose ARM instead of x86.

But if desktop ARM becomes commonplace, it's a good indicator that ARM is finally competitive for "serious" workloads, and people might invest in it more.

As thing stands right now and IMO, it's getting there but Apple having M1 is not enough for me, as CTO, to look into ARM servers, if not as a curiosity.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#108

Post by my123 »

tyingq wrote: post #103
my123 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not the M1 chip by itself, but rather is macOS/iOS.

I think it's both. Mimalloc had to use a different register: https://github.com/microsoft/mimalloc/issues/343

It’s the macOS/iOS ABI solely. It isn’t related in any way to the hardware itself.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#109

Post by rogerbinns »

doctor_eval wrote: post #44
pjmlp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not have a 88000, SPARC, PA-RISC, RS/6000 desktop to develop on UNIX. Likewise, with the return of timesharing, anyone can log into their assigned server slot and work just like I was doing 30 years ago.

Did you work on 88K with DG/UX? I loved that OS. All my 88K work was done on a dumb Wyse 60 terminal logged into one, and I’d busily UUCP my files between the various machines depending on which ones I was working on. But things are a bit different now, it’s much more convenient to work on a laptop, so most people do that. Maybe the pendulum will swing the other way and we’ll start timesharing again, with laptops as…

I worked with 88K DG/UX. Back in those times our company did a desktop environment for UNIX workstations (X Windows didn't come with one as standard). We had over 20 different versions of UNIX systems, including a Sony workstation.

88K DG/UX didn't last very long before they switched to x86, which we also had. Under my desk I had Motorola's 88110 system (a stackable with a SCSI floppy disk!) The thing that stood out most about DG was just how nice all their staff were. I mean really nice.

Even in those days it became very apparent that whatever workstations developers worked on were what was then best supported in the products even for non-GUI software. Slowly but surely the workstation vendors dropped support to server only, meanwhile Windows spread from workstations to servers even though it was considered inferior. Linux also spread for the same reasons.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#110

Post by fanatic2pope »

sneak wrote: post #19

Reminder: unlike the docker command line tool, and the dockerd server container management tool, the Docker Desktop products are a) not free software, b) not even source available, and c) send a lot of sensitive data about your system back to Docker Inc without consent. I didn’t realize this for a while myself, as the docker CLI tools are all free software. The “Desktop” variants are not, and embed spyware.

Amusingly if you go to the docker desktop download page while using Linux (in my case Fedora) you get "download for: Unknown OS" and if you click on it, it redirects you to "https://one/" which of course fails. Not exactly confidence inspiring.
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