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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#411

Post by 131012 »

michaelcampbell wrote: post #360
mnw21cam wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I write software in Java. I can't stand python - too wishy-washy. But my main complaint about Python is trying to use someone else's software. Then it degenerates into a maze of twisty little passages of trying to install the correct set of dependencies, not knowing where those files are installed (which makes it difficult on a cluster, as you may need to do the install on every node separately). Then you try using p…

> I can't stand python - too wishy-washy. That's an interesting take; my experience has been (at least the community) is quite proudly dogmatic on the One Right Way To Do It, for all values of "It". I also don't like Python, but I think for different reasons and perhaps a bit less than you. Never used R, but I understand it to be quite fiddly.

R is an analysis tool. You don't write software in R.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#412

Post by correct_horse »

nonbirithm wrote: post #110

The amount of vitriol Java receives in the game development space is rather strong. However, whenever people dismiss Java as being a bad language, I can't help but think of Minecraft. Yes, it's one of the few mainstream titles where Java has been successfully applied, but I believe Minecraft's success was specifically because it was written in Java. With no JVM, there would have been no Minecraft mods at the level of…

I think the Minecraft mod scene happened because java is easier to deobfuscate than C++. JVM bytecode doesn't have as many opcodes as x86_64 and JVM bytecode's opcodes are on average simpler. I suspect that modding a new unobfuscated game written in C++ that contains debugging symbols would be far easier than modding Minecraft was before obfuscation maps were available. But games rarely ship like this, since they would be easy to pirate.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#413

Post by twic »

chriswarbo wrote: post #293
twic wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pervasive use of `null` and `Object` Who is pervasively using Object? You are talking about a language that hasn't existed for a decade.

As a simple example, `x.equals(y)` accepts an arbitrary Object y. This one example has ramifications all over the place, e.g. I had a bug recently where I was checking if an element was in a collection, using `x.contains(y)`. That .contains method seems to use .equals, since it allows y to be any Object. In my case x was a collection of MyType values whilst y was a MyWrapper which I forgot to unwrap. Rather than givi…

Excellent example, thank you.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#414

Post by dunefox »

offtop5 wrote: post #321
thiht wrote: post #112

> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…

>When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Like, if you're out of work for a couple of months and the only way to feed your kids is to take a Java job, I don't think you'd pass it up. I wouldn't pass it up either even though I don't like Java. The whole language feels like it's designed to meet some minimum lines of code requirement. If you're worki…

If starving is the only reason to take a Java job then it doesn't exactly speak for it.

Python, for example, is also strongly typed. You most likely mean static typing, which is very useful but not exactly Javas or Cs strong suit either.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#415

Post by fma »

jerven wrote: post #275
habosa wrote: post #221

I haven't been coding as long as most (about 10 years) but I've had phases of Java, Ruby, Python, JS, TS, ObjC, etc. If I go onto my GitHub and try to get any of my old projects running I am extremely confident that the non-Android Java ones will still work. All of the other ones will probably have "rotted" over the years and send me down a day-long rabbit hole looking for old dependencies or build systems. There's s…

This, so much this. The value of code just working and staying working is humongous. Having code that is unchanged from Java 1.3 doing it's thing and delivering value 21 years later without needing to be touched and revisited allows us to focus on improving the code that needs to be improved. Doesn't mean we don't touch old code (change idioms, generic safe, build process etc). It means we do it when there is value t…

I've been mainly a Java developer for almost 15 years, but was working with Python the last few months.

I LMAO when Python changed (or broke...depending how you look at it) the basic print functionality between version 2 and 3. Meanwhile I can use the latest and greatest JDK to compile old java code.

Don't get me wrong, I think Python is awesome for what I needed to do (data manipulation) and would likely be my language of choice for such tasks in the future.

Also, the best way to get a highly commented article on HN is to write one on why you love, or hate Java.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#416

Post by andrepd »

>Surprising absence from university curriculum

Oh if only that was true. Sadly it's probably one of the most popular languages in undergrad courses around the world.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#417

Post by pbadenski »

For me personally, it's really important how productive a language environment is after a few years of development. Therefore:

- debugging environment

- memory and CPU profilers

- compilation and linting time of 100k+ codebases

- IDE support for 100k+ codebases

- static analysis & software architecture metric tooling (complexity, dependency analysis etc.)

- inherent scalability of the language, maturity of patterns & practices of scalability

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#418

Post by 131012 »

I see a lot of comparison with Python and Rust and other languages, but not with C# which I feel is the true java equivalent. Anyone worked with both? I feel this is the comparison I'd really appreciate.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#419

Post by hagy »

dagw wrote: post #261
christkv wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin solves most of the problems for us while leveraging the benefits of the JVM.

Are there many companies seriously using Kotlin for large projects outside of the Android space?

Cash App uses Kotlin Multiplatform, including server-side code, https://kotlinlang.org/lp/mobile/case-studies/cash-app

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#420

Post by andrepd »

wwn_se wrote: post #136
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Python projects that start to grow has a tendency to become hard to manage in a way that I have not seen in Java at all. Java is like you say not the greatest at anything but it is also not the worst at anything. Its great for projects where the you don't know what you should optimize for or don't care. If java is to boring maybe kotlin is the way to go. I really like kotlin and in my personal experience the only dow…

Python is good for quick projects, but if you're writing a project with more than 2000 lines of python something's going wrong. The apparent ease of python becomes an unmanageable web of complexity. In the end you woukd have less headaches if you just used a proper statically typed language.
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