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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#351

Post by pjmlp »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #298
pjmlp wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So apparently Rust isn't that better than. Java also has the IDE ecosystem between Netbeans, Eclipse and all JetBrains offerings, with exception of Apple and Microsoft offerings.

It's not a matter of better. The original comment is all about what compromises work for me, and why I don't have a use case for Java. You are trying to move the debate toward the quality of java, which is was never my point.

Not at all, I though your point was how Rust and Go are a much better option.

> If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go.

So given that, I am curious where are those GUI alternatives with the required perfomance in Go and Rust.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#352

Post by pjmlp »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #304
pjmlp wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While we don’t have specific plans to announce at this time, we have been researching the topic, conducting customer interviews, and are working with the Python team at Microsoft so we can build a plan that we think can address the scenarios you told us about and ensure it can run wherever Excel runs. Any long time developer on MS stack knows that actually means "thank you very much but no".

They just hired Guido, the father of Python, at Microsoft. So, I would not be so sure.

Yeah, because he did so much for Python tooling at Google.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#353

Post by blacktriangle »

pydry wrote: post #194
doctor_eval wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know the joke: a dev has a problem, uses Java, and now has a ProblemFactory :) I LOL’d at this joke (again) because it’s true, but if we’re honest, it’s also unfair. ProblemFactory is a bad idiom, rather than anything to do with Java The Language. You could (and IMO, probably should) just use a new Problem(). Java The Language was very stable for a very long time, so IMO the hype and fads got built on top. Firs…

The crap people created on top was typically responses to deficiencies in the language, whether they knew it or not. Stuff like "everything is a class".

I have a saying for that: design patterns are a language smell.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#354

Post by eurasiantiger »

pulse7 wrote: post #120
thiht wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait for updates or projects requiring a different JDK.

You just install any JDK in any directory - nothing to configure there - and then point IntelliJ to this directory... If this is hard, then... hmmm....

That is a perfect demonstration of the toxic attitude I’ve come to expect from Java fanatics.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#355

Post by [deleted] »

2ion wrote: post #336
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

My main issue is that people writing Java (or for the JVM) because of their backgrounds (app-level code printers) almost completely disregard how that code works on the JVM, at scale, in a highly responsive and/or high throughput service. You can't just use a big, "safe bet" framework like spring, which taints EVERYTHING in that project, write a simple REST API and then do heavy work "in the background" without side…

[deleted]

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#358

Post by scottious »

thiht wrote: post #112

> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…

Totally agree, especially about Maven/Gradle. I'd also like to point out that the popular Spring Framework is just... annoying. It's full of magic. You have to know the right incantations to get anything done. Somehow there is too much documentation and not enough at the same time.

I've never seen a Java program in my entire career that was actually fast and not a huge pain to work with. I'm working on a new one right now and the prototype/skeleton literally does just basic CRUD operations and the CI/CD pipeline takes 7 minutes.

Golang was a breath of fresh air for me.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#359

Post by KptMarchewa »

saagarjha wrote: post #289
yoneda wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree, except the part about the low risk of runtime surprises. Java's type system is so weak that it doesn't even prevent null from inhabiting almost every type. The programmer is then forced to manually reason about when a value can be null or not, and of course humans can easily make mistakes in doing so. This inevitably leads to NullPointerExceptions at runtime when a project becomes sufficiently comp…

> Java's type system is so weak that it doesn't even prevent null from inhabiting almost every type. "So weak"? You do realize that this is basically where every language was less than a decade ago?

I like Java, but that's weak argument.

We're in 2021, not decade ago.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#360

Post by michaelcampbell »

mnw21cam wrote: post #225
wwn_se wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python projects that start to grow has a tendency to become hard to manage in a way that I have not seen in Java at all. Java is like you say not the greatest at anything but it is also not the worst at anything. Its great for projects where the you don't know what you should optimize for or don't care. If java is to boring maybe kotlin is the way to go. I really like kotlin and in my personal experience the only dow…

I write software in Java. I can't stand python - too wishy-washy. But my main complaint about Python is trying to use someone else's software. Then it degenerates into a maze of twisty little passages of trying to install the correct set of dependencies, not knowing where those files are installed (which makes it difficult on a cluster, as you may need to do the install on every node separately). Then you try using p…

> I can't stand python - too wishy-washy.

That's an interesting take; my experience has been (at least the community) is quite proudly dogmatic on the One Right Way To Do It, for all values of "It".

I also don't like Python, but I think for different reasons and perhaps a bit less than you.

Never used R, but I understand it to be quite fiddly.

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