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Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

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Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before Android killed them, webOS existed, as did Maemo.

Would you be willing to entertain that maybe they died because most people who used phones found those platforms to be weaker product offerings with the things they cared about and that your value system may have fundamentally differences? Would you further entertain that the inability to perceive such realities and differences and manufacturers inability to navigate these preferences is a major determinant of succes…

"Would you be willing to entertain that maybe they died because most people found those platforms to be simply weaker product offerings?"

No.

I mean hahahahahah HELL NO not even close.

WebOS was great.

The only thing that made Android win was the brute force of Google, and the fact that Android was open source and WebOS was not (somehow, despite being Linux), and mismanagement by Palm.

"Weaker product offerings" isn't really an applicable idea for new entire ecosystems. He who can put up the most cash and marketing and special deals can create a new ecosystem from scratch that is by definition and necessity far weaker than others that have already existed for years, and still win by plain force.

When the iPhone came out, it had no 3rd party apps at all, while Palm and Windows devices existed for years. Particularly PalmOS had a massive rich diverse mature ecosystem of 3rd party apps.

I had a full screen, color, touch, grid icon home screen of 3rd party apps, internet connected, smartphone... In 2000, SEVEN YEARS before the first iPhone came out. I had a web browser, an ssh client, even a vnc client, Audible.com audio book player app, .. And every random app for every big and little purpose I coukdbthink of, from db apps to odd little things like a netmask calculator and resistor color code decoder, irc client, book reader, integrated contacts db phone dialer... Just like today, except better, no app store, and so no app store saying I can't have an app I want but Google or Apple doesn't. All this in 2000. 7 years before the "revolutionary" iPhone.

And even after the iPhone came out, not only were it's offerings weaker, they didn't exist at all. No 3rd party apps allowed at first.

Apple won because they are Apple. The phone hardware was a technical and design marvel, and Apple could afford to create a whole new world from scratch to displace an existing mature rich one thanks to plain money and size from years of iPod sales.

Google didn't have a stunning new device that blew away anything that came before, but they did have the money and the ability to make deals with carriers, and the open source angle. (I don't mean that consumers cared about that, I mean that letting everyone and their dog make a phone for free was an effective way to match Apple's deep with a Google wide.)

Android frankly sucked balls compared to WebOS for quite a while, both the os itself and the "offerings". But, Google. Palm. Come on.

I would agree that in the contest between Windows phone and either Android or IOS, MS had the size and resources to compete, and failed because they failed, not because there was no possible contest once someone that big decides to get in your game.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#112

Has nobody bothered to read anything about FLoC? The purpose of this permission is to prevent embedded third-party content from using FLoC. Besides that it’s a no-op. FLoC does not track arbitrary websites, it tracks sites which retrieve the FLoC cohort via JS. So instead of dropping a unique third party cookie, and associating it with the data on the page, sites can now retrieve a k-anonymous cohort id and associate…

According to the W3C Federated Learning of Cohorts Draft Community Group Report, 13 April 2021, Paragraphs 3 & 7.1.1: "The interest cohort API lives under the Document interface since the access permission is tied to the document scope, and the API is only available if the document is in secure context." and "The page can opt itself out of the interest cohort computation through the "interest-cohort" policy-controlle…

Did you intentionally leave out the first sentence of 7.1.1?

> By default, a page is eligible for the interest cohort computation if the interestCohort() API is used in the page.

I'm certainly not defending FLoC, I've been using Firefox for 20 years. But creative editing isn't called for.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your examples refer to tools that are being misused, whereas weapons or tracking software is a negative for humanity precisely when they're working as intended

Here we disagree. Weapons stopped Hitler. Weapons stopped USSR. Weapons stop US. Weapons stop todays Russia. Weapons are tools too. Mostly to scare away an attacker before they strike but sadly sometimes also to strike back. Double sadly they also come with the possibility to strike first. But in the choice of us being armed and Russia and China and the middle East being armed or everyone being armed except us I take…

> Weapons stopped Hitler. Weapons stopped USSR. Weapons stop US. Weapons stop todays Russia.

That's just a rephrasing of the same old "good guy with a gun" meme.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#114
post #7

Why isn't this opt-in? I'm sick of having to add yet another config option every time some Web giant decides it is OK to abuse my website and my visitors.

It is. If you’re not calling ‘document.interestCohort()’ or serving ads from an ad network on your page then FLoC does nothing. The purpose of this permission is to prevent embedded third-party content from using FLoC.

*If Google does not detect ads. Which can mean anything depending on how they stretch the definition. And Google has a bad history with this kind of thing, see unwarranted and unexplained account bans as well as automated "malicious website" flagging that's notoriously hard to get rid of because Google won't even tell the website owner what part of the site was detected as malicious.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#115

How does it benefit website owners to opt out?

Say you are running a page selling car parts, but aren't paying Google to run ads. Not opting out means that your customers now get targeted ads from your competition.

Unless your are paying Google large amounts of money to mainly show your ads not opting out seems like the wrong choice.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we disagree. Weapons stopped Hitler. Weapons stopped USSR. Weapons stop US. Weapons stop todays Russia. Weapons are tools too. Mostly to scare away an attacker before they strike but sadly sometimes also to strike back. Double sadly they also come with the possibility to strike first. But in the choice of us being armed and Russia and China and the middle East being armed or everyone being armed except us I take…

> Weapons stopped Hitler. Weapons stopped USSR. Weapons stop US. Weapons stop todays Russia. That's just a rephrasing of the same old "good guy with a gun" meme.

Anything wrong with that?

Think: if you try to remove all guns overnight the ones you get is the ones from the good guys. If you make guns illegal only criminals will have guns.

Also: the biggest crimes against humanity have typically been made by the local rulers: Hitler can be discussed, Stalin, Pol Pot and a number of others cannot.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#117
post #101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting and ethical by providing suggestions as alternatives! I'd be interested too, but I can't find much on the web... do you guys have any instructions/link?

You mean blocking the agent or do you mean other browsers?

Blocking on my site the access from the Chrome browser only, or displaying a banner page – e.g. "You are using Chrome, thou shall not pass"

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the W3C Federated Learning of Cohorts Draft Community Group Report, 13 April 2021, Paragraphs 3 & 7.1.1: "The interest cohort API lives under the Document interface since the access permission is tied to the document scope, and the API is only available if the document is in secure context." and "The page can opt itself out of the interest cohort computation through the "interest-cohort" policy-controlle…

Did you intentionally leave out the first sentence of 7.1.1? > By default, a page is eligible for the interest cohort computation if the interestCohort() API is used in the page. I'm certainly not defending FLoC, I've been using Firefox for 20 years. But creative editing isn't called for.

No, I linked to the source and quoted the relevant point. I believe all three sentences in the paragraph are cumulative but independent points that explicitly do not preclude each other. Any item of itself is sufficient to preclude the calling of the API.

By default, the page is eligible if the API is used in the page, but the website owner can opt out of that using the header setting, and the user agent should offer a permission setting to disallow sites for inclusion by users. The second and third sentences would not exist or make any sense if the first sentence precluded them.

The full text of the paragraph is:

''' 7. Privacy considerations 7.1. Permission 7.1.1. Eligibility for a page to be included in the interest cohort computation

By default, a page is eligible for the interest cohort computation if the interestCohort() API is used in the page.

The page can opt itself out of the interest cohort computation through the "interest-cohort" policy-controlled feature. [PERMISSIONS-POLICY]

The user agent should offer a dedicated permission setting for the user to disallow sites from being included for interest cohort calculations. '''

There are multiple reasons why the API could be included in the page, but a website owner choose to opt out using the header, or a user disallow it. I agree it is confusingly phrased but it is a draft, and the meaning seems clear to me.

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#119

Has nobody bothered to read anything about FLoC? The purpose of this permission is to prevent embedded third-party content from using FLoC. Besides that it’s a no-op. FLoC does not track arbitrary websites, it tracks sites which retrieve the FLoC cohort via JS. So instead of dropping a unique third party cookie, and associating it with the data on the page, sites can now retrieve a k-anonymous cohort id and associate…

https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/82 >During the current FLoC origin trial, a page will also be included in the calculation if Chrome detects that the page load ads or ads-related resources. Who's to say how this evolves in the future?

"During trial we had so much success with our auto-opt-in mechanism (and grew so fond of being omnipotent) we've decided to make it a permanent feature."

Re: Opting Your Website Out of Google's FLoC Network

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to entertain that maybe they died because most people who used phones found those platforms to be weaker product offerings with the things they cared about and that your value system may have fundamentally differences? Would you further entertain that the inability to perceive such realities and differences and manufacturers inability to navigate these preferences is a major determinant of succes…

"Would you be willing to entertain that maybe they died because most people found those platforms to be simply weaker product offerings?" No. I mean hahahahahah HELL NO not even close. WebOS was great. The only thing that made Android win was the brute force of Google, and the fact that Android was open source and WebOS was not (somehow, despite being Linux), and mismanagement by Palm. "Weaker product offerings" isn'…

Clearly you're not like most people.

Until people can really understand what I said above, and clearly they still can't, this kind of stuff will always happen

The biggest players in the industry released failed handheld platforms for 20 years before Android.

That theory does not explain the failure of all the other prior attempts by other monopolies

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