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Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

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Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#261
post #175
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it seems like Bitcoin (and other pow cryptocurrencies) are almost like the climate change scapegoat for a number of social and economic issues that have seemingly come to a head recently to facilitate their rise. People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" and I think it is…

I don't think the criticism is exactly wrong, but it's more like Bitcoin mining is the reductio ad absurdum exposing the waste of resources that goes into gold mining (yes, there's some industrial uses, but that is a rounding error compared to the quantities that are dug up, purified, cast into bars, shipped around the world and buried back underground in vaults).

About half is used for jewelry because gold is shiny pebbles. About 10% is used for electronics.

Mining Bitcoin consumes 5X as much energy as gold, btw, per unit value extracted. It also requires mining gold to produce the circuit boards used for mining Bitcoin - given the popularity of the ENIG immersion gold plating process for PCB contacts.

The secondary issue is that of course each Bitcoin transaction generates 100g of e-waste which cannot be recycled and just gets buried. E-waste has a few grams of metals, but is mostly plastic and FR4 (epoxy filled fiberglass). Plastic and FR4 cannot be recycled. What little of the e-waste can be recycled is shipped to third-world countries where poor people dig through piles of scrap and dunk it in toxic chemicals.

The only meaningful way to move forward is to reduce consumption, especially consumption which achieves nothing, like literally wiring up a power plant to compute hashes of random data instead of attaching it to the grid to do useful things.

What a disaster.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s much much cheaper to verify than it is to mine. That’s kind of the whole point.

Verifying Bitcoin transactions is mining.

Mining is guessing a number that will give a given hash output. The verification part is simple, and only needs to be done once, the guessing and retesting bit is the intensive bit

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#264
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. It's a practical way to store value without the government destroying it by monetary emission. > 2. People are free to speculate. So it's a store of value that's destroyable by speculation. That's, if anything, worse than the US Dollar.

Doesn't look destroyable in the long-term

Neither do tulips, doesn’t make them “a good unit of currency” or “not a massive bubble”.

But the core point bb88 was making is that it can serve at most one of those two goals: “store of value” and “good for speculation” are mutually exclusive. Something can be neither, nothing can be both.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#265
post #260

This might be a good thing. There are a few responses possible: 1. Do nothing, public gets angry. 2. Make bitcoin, or its mining, illegal. However, what is the criteria? All blockchains? Should google be illegal too? Both are just a digital product that the public wants. 3. Tax CO2 production by data centers, that might have a chance it can be coordinated broadly between nations, there is enough money there to tax, a…

"Should google be illegal too?" is a pretty ridiculous extrapolation. Nobody would go that far, a regulation like that doesn't achieve any climate goals and would have massive economic impact. You can probably provide an example that isn't wholly implausible like online banking? Even then, it is possible to draw a line.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#266

It’s a simple equation: So long as there is more money in mining BTC than there is cost in energy to mine it, mining will proceed. No entity in the world can control the price of crypto. But, we can and already do regulate energy production. I think we need a carbon tax, that is specifically a financial disincentive towards any means of energy production that directly pollutes the atmosphere. Seriously, what are the…

The supply of Bitcoin is fixed, energy prices don’t feed back that way.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#267
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it seems like Bitcoin (and other pow cryptocurrencies) are almost like the climate change scapegoat for a number of social and economic issues that have seemingly come to a head recently to facilitate their rise. People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" and I think it is…

Yes. Cryptocurrencies are used because they're the only market that hasn't yet been regulated to death. People come to Bitcoin for 2 reasons, mainly: 1. It's a practical way to store value without the government destroying it by monetary emission. 2. People are free to speculate. The solution to the first point is that governments should stop pulling the rug from under people's feet. Monetary emission should be predi…

> The solution to the first point is that governments should stop pulling the rug from under people's feet. Monetary emission should be predictable in the short, medium, and long term, or be tied to some real world indicator, like the cost of consumer goods. Just stop with this inflationary nonsense.

That's literally exactly how it works right now lol.

> Freedom to speculate.

Have you seen the options market.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#269
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the criticism is exactly wrong, but it's more like Bitcoin mining is the reductio ad absurdum exposing the waste of resources that goes into gold mining (yes, there's some industrial uses, but that is a rounding error compared to the quantities that are dug up, purified, cast into bars, shipped around the world and buried back underground in vaults).

About half is used for jewelry because gold is shiny pebbles. About 10% is used for electronics. Mining Bitcoin consumes 5X as much energy as gold, btw, per unit value extracted. It also requires mining gold to produce the circuit boards used for mining Bitcoin - given the popularity of the ENIG immersion gold plating process for PCB contacts. The secondary issue is that of course each Bitcoin transaction generates 1…

Where did you get the 100g of e-waste figure from btw? Is that, roughly speaking, the e-waste mass of storage/txn * total number of nodes?

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#270
post #173
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn’t answer their question. Can you quantify what things pollute more?

Here, let me Google that for you. First, let's assume for a moment that this February 2021 CNBC source [1] is correct in that Bitcoin mining produces 36.94 megatons of CO2 per year. The original source the CNBC article cited can be found here: [3] (which currently pegs Bitcoin at 47.62 megatons/year). According to the EPA, the US economy alone produced 6,558 megatons of CO2 [2] in 2019 (i.e. under pre-COVID emissions…

I'd like to add electronics on standby to your list ("could be as high as 10% of total energy use"):

https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/climate-change/ene...

As I've tried to argue with others before: I doubt climate change and energy waste are at the top of the agenda of these people so wound up against Bitcoin's energy waste otherwise we'd see a lot more people

• switching to a vegetarian, let alone vegan, diet

• using a bike instead of car for doing groceries

• taking the train instead of a plane for holidays

• voting for radical green parties

• unplug their fucking electronics

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