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Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

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Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#241

Post by kolinko »

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #103
baron816 wrote: post #88

Easy solution: tax carbon emissions. Who cares if you’re using energy to mine Bitcoin? Or if you’re using it to play video games? Or to run the AC all day? If it you’re internalizing the cost of any emissions, then you’ll use those resources efficiently.

Hard to do this when you can have other countries with much looser regulations allow Bitcoin miners run rampant. What probably should happen is to make converting from any cryptocurrency to major world currencies a crime. I have no delusions that this will halt activity in this sector entirely, but it will make it reasonably difficult to make any substantial money this way without raising some serious eyebrows.

This would halt any legal activity and keep the illegal activity intact.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#242

Post by lottin »

shawnz wrote: post #191
lottin wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not so much that cryptocurrencies don't replace anything as that they don't have a use case (this is something that we can observe, unlike "value" which is subjective), and therefore it could be argued they are objectively useless regardless of their actual value in the market.

Bitcoin certainly has a use case, just observe how it is being used today, every day. Not just to buy drugs online, but also for example to escape oppressive currency controls, defend against questionably ethical practices like civil forfeiture, etc. If you are saying that it doesn't have intrinsic value, then yes of course that is true, but I don't see how that makes it useless (unless you think cash is also useless…

It's true that a small minority of people actually have a use (legitimate or not) for bitcoin, but as far as the general public is concerned this is not the case.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#243

Post by shawnz »

lottin wrote: post #242
shawnz wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin certainly has a use case, just observe how it is being used today, every day. Not just to buy drugs online, but also for example to escape oppressive currency controls, defend against questionably ethical practices like civil forfeiture, etc. If you are saying that it doesn't have intrinsic value, then yes of course that is true, but I don't see how that makes it useless (unless you think cash is also useless…

It's true that a small minority of people actually have a use (legitimate or not) for bitcoin, but as far as the general public is concerned this is not the case.

And appropriately it represents a small minority of energy use (~0.6%)

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#244

Post by keeganpoppen »

fergie wrote: post #162
baron816 wrote: post #88

Easy solution: tax carbon emissions. Who cares if you’re using energy to mine Bitcoin? Or if you’re using it to play video games? Or to run the AC all day? If it you’re internalizing the cost of any emissions, then you’ll use those resources efficiently.

Why tax carbon emissions rather than directly taxing the manufacture of bitcoin? Carbon taxes increase costs for everything. Should we increase the cost of say, hospitals because some people _really_ want to mine bitcoin?

let's just have a committee to decide what uses of electricity are and are not sufficiently meritorious!

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#245

Post by bawolff »

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #220
bawolff wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll never be able to convince the other side of anything if you don't take the time to understand where they are coming from. Shouting into the void may feel good, but does not change hearts and minds.

The problem with text based conversations like this is that you really aren't able to perceive my physical or emotional state easily over text. Using all caps and multiple punctuation marks are also not only extremely rude in polite company, but I'm sure HN has rules against that kind of thing. :) And bawolff... my aim is to at least give those reading from the sidelines some things to think about. I am sure as heck…

> And bawolff... my aim is to at least give those reading from the sidelines some things to think about.

And are you under the impression that you're the only voice that people on the sidelines are going to hear? You need to understand the counter arguments so you can adapt your own arguments to counter them. You can't defeat an enemy you don't understand.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#246

Post by adrianN »

fergie wrote: post #162
baron816 wrote: post #88

Easy solution: tax carbon emissions. Who cares if you’re using energy to mine Bitcoin? Or if you’re using it to play video games? Or to run the AC all day? If it you’re internalizing the cost of any emissions, then you’ll use those resources efficiently.

Why tax carbon emissions rather than directly taxing the manufacture of bitcoin? Carbon taxes increase costs for everything. Should we increase the cost of say, hospitals because some people _really_ want to mine bitcoin?

Because climate change needs to be mitigated as much as possible.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#247

Post by fy20 »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #7
xvilka wrote: post #5

A simple move that would ban selling fossil power plants for cryptocurrencies mining purpose BUT allowing to do so for the carbon-neutral energy would be a win-win for both sides and will help the transition from carbon-heavy energy.

I'm wondering if 'carbon-neutral' energy production is really environmentally neutral, especially when channeled to cryptocurrency mining. Take wind turbines: they've found that harvesting wind actually increases the temperature in an area. Do enough of this, coupled with channeling the energy into heat-producing machines, are we sure this isn't gong to contribute to global warming at scale? Not to mention the harm t…

The impact of a wind farm is going to be very minimal compared to the waste heat generated by fossil fuel power plants. In my country (thanks to the Soviets!) a lot of the waste heat from electricity generation is captured and used to heat homes in nearby cities. One of the largest natural gas plants has a electricity output of 1800MW and a heat output of 5800MW - yet they still needed to build a massive artificial lake to provide additional cooling capacity.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#248

Post by skybrian »

bransonf wrote: post #94

It’s a simple equation: So long as there is more money in mining BTC than there is cost in energy to mine it, mining will proceed. No entity in the world can control the price of crypto. But, we can and already do regulate energy production. I think we need a carbon tax, that is specifically a financial disincentive towards any means of energy production that directly pollutes the atmosphere. Seriously, what are the…

A carbon tax would be great, but I don’t know why you think governments couldn’t significantly discourage holding cryptocurrency?

A wealth tax on proof-of-work currencies would discourage legitimate businesses (that don’t cheat on taxes) from holding them.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#249

Post by vmception »

maxerickson wrote: post #27
de6u99er wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument, that most Bitcoin mining uses renewabke energy isn't valid, because the renewable energy used for BitCoin mining could have been used for other things.

That's why they are talking about the flaring instead of hydroelectric, to sell the idea that it's using power that wouldn't be recovered otherwise. Of course it is sort of likely that cheap hydroelectric is a much bigger component of the supply than gas power plants installed just to mine bitcoin.

they? Its not a cabal, just say whats not accurate about the statement and we’ll discuss that, states are desperate to reduce their flaring emissions and on-site miners are a big solution for them and its actually happening. If the percentages are currently wrong just say so

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#250

Post by lottin »

shawnz wrote: post #243
lottin wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that a small minority of people actually have a use (legitimate or not) for bitcoin, but as far as the general public is concerned this is not the case.

And appropriately it represents a small minority of energy use (~0.6%)

Exactly, hoarding bitcoin —not using it— is the problem. It leads to high prices and consequent high environmental impact.
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