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Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

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Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#211

Post by bawolff »

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #190
afc wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was reading a few of your comments in this thread and just figured I'd point out, as candidly as I can, that you come across as extremely biased against cryptocurrencies, using very manipulative language to advance your position (e.g., anyone who disagrees with you is "part of the circle jerk", Bitcoin fans want to "get suckers to pump the coins sky high", Bitcoin "is a symptom of human greed that must be put in ch…

Your assumption about me is correct. I am extremely biased against cryptocurrencies. And that's bad how? Do you have a sizable position in these instruments that you are afraid would be affected by my dialogue? And my point about circle jerks is prevalent all over social media. Open your eyes man. The Winklevoss Twins, Jack @ Twitter, Elon Musk. All of them have a vested interest in abusing their influence to push th…

Have you considered the best way to advance your position is to use logic instead of acting hysterically? I mean, i think i agreed with you more before i read your comments than after.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#212

Post by SwimSwimHungry »

jude- wrote: post #194
SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response to you is quite simple. Unlike virtually every other technology that's been created (like computers, cars, smartphones, etc), Bitcoin simply exists in a form where the primary purpose is to waste energy, and the system inherently incentivizes it. Also, the issue of bad building insulation does not in any manner invalidate my concern with the growing problem of Bitcoin now and in the future . Bad building…

> Bitcoin simply exists in a form where the primary purpose is to waste energy, That's just your moral judgement. The people who use and make a living off of Bitcoin certainly don't see it as a waste. > In order for the network to remain secure, it must burn copious amounts of energy. First, this does not preclude PoW from existing in a world powered 100% renewable energy. Second, I've already outlined a way to econo…

Look, I'll just say right here I do believe your heart is in the right place and you want there to be an alternative to the government run and controlled fiat. That said, gold technically exists already to meet this in my humble opinion as a proper hedge.

Also, to your point about greenifying Bitcoin, I just believe the assumption that bitcoin will just move over 100% to green energy sources is naive at best, and considering that is energy that isn't being used for activities I would argue as more productive (like powering homes, schools, electric cars), I just feel that it's a real opportunity loss.

I just think it's not as likely to happen. Maybe if nuclear power really starts to take off again, there might be hope, as the sheer amount of Gigawatts that such plants can produce could easily outpace other green energy technologies. Sadly we have some anti-nuclear sentiment that blocks progress in building new plants quickly.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#213

Post by jude- »

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #190
afc wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was reading a few of your comments in this thread and just figured I'd point out, as candidly as I can, that you come across as extremely biased against cryptocurrencies, using very manipulative language to advance your position (e.g., anyone who disagrees with you is "part of the circle jerk", Bitcoin fans want to "get suckers to pump the coins sky high", Bitcoin "is a symptom of human greed that must be put in ch…

Your assumption about me is correct. I am extremely biased against cryptocurrencies. And that's bad how? Do you have a sizable position in these instruments that you are afraid would be affected by my dialogue? And my point about circle jerks is prevalent all over social media. Open your eyes man. The Winklevoss Twins, Jack @ Twitter, Elon Musk. All of them have a vested interest in abusing their influence to push th…

I think you should go re-read the HN commenting guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#215

Post by spiorf »

pauljurczak wrote: post #150

"its price has risen from $3,729 in December 2018 to more than $62,000 this week." Nice advertising. How about: "its price has risen from $19,650 in December 2017 to more than $62,000 this week."

Its price was $19,650 only for a brief moment. Why pick that particular moment for the range instead of the minimum and maximum as per "range" definition?

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#216

Post by SwimSwimHungry »

bawolff wrote: post #201
SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response to you is quite simple. Unlike virtually every other technology that's been created (like computers, cars, smartphones, etc), Bitcoin simply exists in a form where the primary purpose is to waste energy, and the system inherently incentivizes it. Also, the issue of bad building insulation does not in any manner invalidate my concern with the growing problem of Bitcoin now and in the future . Bad building…

> I believe I've made my points at this juncture. Very badly. Not saying your wrong, just that you're really bad at arguing. You asked a question "Can you quantify what things pollute more?" and when the other guy gave you a list, you responded by saying it doesn't matter as the important thing is the purpose of the pollution. Unless it just occured to you between typing the two responses that some types of pollution…

Fine. I may not be the best at arguing, and to be fair, being really good at debate and arguing points effectively takes tons of time and practice. I will make mistakes with my presentation, but the kernel of what I speak of is still unchanged.

I have no delusions of grandeur about convincing those entrenched in specific camps over to my side. Just the hope that those who are watching from the sidelines can see what I'm saying and hopefully they can take something away from it that is helpful and productive.

To the list of polluting concerns, I didn't say that it "doesn't matter", and that seems to be putting words in my mouth, if I'm being honest. In fact, to his point on building insulation, I noted that there can in fact be an incentive to correct this with a net savings, and we can encourage those around us to make such corrections wherever it is in their power to do so. Bitcoin from my view incentivizes the opposite kind of behavior. That's what I'm hopefully trying to get across.

I don't expect you to agree with my positions, but hopefully to at least understand my perspective.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#217

Post by bosswipe »

bb88 wrote: post #189
ayngg wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it seems like Bitcoin (and other pow cryptocurrencies) are almost like the climate change scapegoat for a number of social and economic issues that have seemingly come to a head recently to facilitate their rise. People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" and I think it is…

> People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" FOMO, mining lotteries, and the guise of financial innovation are typical cover stories here. But all stocks and other publicly traded investments are basically making a bet that others will buy in after you do, raising the price highe…

Yep. Follow the money. Who benefits from weak ineffective democratic institutions?

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#218

Post by FeepingCreature »

bb88 wrote: post #189
ayngg wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it seems like Bitcoin (and other pow cryptocurrencies) are almost like the climate change scapegoat for a number of social and economic issues that have seemingly come to a head recently to facilitate their rise. People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" and I think it is…

> People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" FOMO, mining lotteries, and the guise of financial innovation are typical cover stories here. But all stocks and other publicly traded investments are basically making a bet that others will buy in after you do, raising the price highe…

> So what if the rich have too much money? That would explain a lot. It would explain why GME stock was shorted %140 of float.

How would it explain that?

> It would also explain why politicians are so ineffective at regulation. If you were rich, would you want effective politicians? No. You would put your money behind the least effective politicians.

Just because you'd want it that way doesn't mean you did it. Motive, but where's means and method? https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/money-and-elections-a-c...

> It would also explain why most institutions have become less trustworthy in the eye of the public, as big money has corrupted the system.

As opposed to in the past, where big money hadn't corrupted the system?

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#219

Post by puchatek »

bb88 wrote: post #209
young_unixer wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Cryptocurrencies are used because they're the only market that hasn't yet been regulated to death. People come to Bitcoin for 2 reasons, mainly: 1. It's a practical way to store value without the government destroying it by monetary emission. 2. People are free to speculate. The solution to the first point is that governments should stop pulling the rug from under people's feet. Monetary emission should be predi…

> 1. It's a practical way to store value without the government destroying it by monetary emission. > 2. People are free to speculate. So it's a store of value that's destroyable by speculation. That's, if anything, worse than the US Dollar.

Doesn't look destroyable in the long-term

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#220

Post by SwimSwimHungry »

bawolff wrote: post #203
SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want to outlaw math now? Are we even arguing in good faith at this point? And so what if my post history is mostly anti-cryptocurrency. This is a position I hold to strongly, and someone needs to give the other side so these four walls aren't filled with infinite circle jerks.

You'll never be able to convince the other side of anything if you don't take the time to understand where they are coming from. Shouting into the void may feel good, but does not change hearts and minds.

The problem with text based conversations like this is that you really aren't able to perceive my physical or emotional state easily over text. Using all caps and multiple punctuation marks are also not only extremely rude in polite company, but I'm sure HN has rules against that kind of thing. :)

And bawolff... my aim is to at least give those reading from the sidelines some things to think about. I am sure as heck unable to convince a hardcore proponent of Bitcoin to change in a 15-20 minute back and forth, not because my points are necessarily bad, but because human beings are a stubborn lot (I know I can be too!)

I think I did OK overall. I know some of my comments were reacted to negatively, but that's fine. I don't expect agreement easily.

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