Bitcoin miners are buying power plants • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#201

Post by bawolff » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #185

jude- wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, let me Google that for you. First, let's assume for a moment that this February 2021 CNBC source [1] is correct in that Bitcoin mining produces 36.94 megatons of CO2 per year. The original source the CNBC article cited can be found here: [3] (which currently pegs Bitcoin at 47.62 megatons/year). According to the EPA, the US economy alone produced 6,558 megatons of CO2 [2] in 2019 (i.e. under pre-COVID emissions…

My response to you is quite simple. Unlike virtually every other technology that's been created (like computers, cars, smartphones, etc), Bitcoin simply exists in a form where the primary purpose is to waste energy, and the system inherently incentivizes it. Also, the issue of bad building insulation does not in any manner invalidate my concern with the growing problem of Bitcoin now and in the future . Bad building…

> I believe I've made my points at this juncture.

Very badly. Not saying your wrong, just that you're really bad at arguing.

You asked a question "Can you quantify what things pollute more?" and when the other guy gave you a list, you responded by saying it doesn't matter as the important thing is the purpose of the pollution.

Unless it just occured to you between typing the two responses that some types of pollution are the result of more useful work tha others, that is some bad faith argumentation. Asking a question you think is irrelavent just so you can later move the goal posts, is just silly.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#202

Post by kemonocode » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

Some people throw hissy fits about how polluting cryptocurrencies supposedly are yet they remain silent about the perverse incentives that spurred their creation and use. It's the war on drugs all over again, and getting angry about crypto and trying to outlaw it is just treating a symptom and not the disease.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#203

Post by bawolff » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #156

px43 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your bias? You seem to have created your HN account 8 months ago and comment almost exclusively about trying to get cryptocurrencies banned. We don't need a world with more Luddites trying to outlaw math. The future will be secured and cryptographically verified, and there's not anything you can do to stop it.

We want to outlaw math now? Are we even arguing in good faith at this point? And so what if my post history is mostly anti-cryptocurrency. This is a position I hold to strongly, and someone needs to give the other side so these four walls aren't filled with infinite circle jerks.

You'll never be able to convince the other side of anything if you don't take the time to understand where they are coming from.

Shouting into the void may feel good, but does not change hearts and minds.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#204

Post by kortilla » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

fergie wrote: post #162

baron816 wrote: post #88

Easy solution: tax carbon emissions. Who cares if you’re using energy to mine Bitcoin? Or if you’re using it to play video games? Or to run the AC all day? If it you’re internalizing the cost of any emissions, then you’ll use those resources efficiently.

Why tax carbon emissions rather than directly taxing the manufacture of bitcoin? Carbon taxes increase costs for everything. Should we increase the cost of say, hospitals because some people _really_ want to mine bitcoin?

Because carbon is what we want to discourage. Bitcoin would be fine if it was carbon free

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#205

Post by spiorf » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 5:59 AM UTC

legohead wrote: post #51

xvilka wrote: post #5

A simple move that would ban selling fossil power plants for cryptocurrencies mining purpose BUT allowing to do so for the carbon-neutral energy would be a win-win for both sides and will help the transition from carbon-heavy energy.

Simpler: ban banks and credit card companies from dealing with anything related to cryptocurrency

In every jurisdiction of the planet. At the same time, otherwise it just gets more profitable elsewhere.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#206

Post by bawolff » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 5:59 AM UTC

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #87

caterama wrote: post #68

Who cares? Everyone is fixated on Bitcoin... there are tons of energy inefficient processes out there. The solution has nothing to do with Bitcoin... environmental impact needs to be priced into energy itself, whatever the application. This is a failure of the markets (and therefore ourselves). Bitcoin is a scapegoat.

Here's the problem with this sentiment. Bitcoin isn't replacing anything. Not pre-existing fiat currency, not banks, nothing. Bitcoin only adds to the problem at an alarming rate. Bitcoin is certainly not a scapegoat. It's a massive problem and, largely, a symptom of human greed that must be put in check.

What a weird metric.

The international space station isn't replacing anything, i still think its valuable.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#207

Post by SwimSwimHungry » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 6:00 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #199

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@maxerickson That ultimately will be the end game. I'd argue that most of the folks that bought into Bitcoin do not, in fact, share in the an-cap libertarian utopia of an economy entirely detached from the US Dollar. Folks are going to want their payday, even folks like Michael Saylor and Elon Musk. These guys aren't HODLing for charity. They want to exit before the rest of the peanut gallery does.

I philosophically believe, to my core, that one of the greatest evils ever perpetuated on humanity was allowing governments to print money whenever they wanted. With very few exceptions, every single fiat currency has experienced periods of high or extremely high inflation (including USD in the 70s). Giving those in power the ability to dilute everyone else’s wealth and direct new money to their favored people / proj…

First, I will say, I do agree that fiat does have its flaws, and certainly the Fed is an institution that is run in great secrecy.

To that end, why not use actual gold as a hedge? Why reinvent the wheel with a technology that burns ridiculous levels of energy, and doesn't at least have some additional side utility, like how gold is used in electronics or jewelry?

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#208

Post by kortilla » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

spiorf wrote: post #200

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to your point, likely a way that doesn't have global implications? Even other bubbles of the past didn't have quite the reach that the likes of Bitcoin has (maybe with the exception of the entire stock market in the Roaring 20s leading right up to the crash of 1929). That's why this time, this is much more dangerous in the long run.

What about the hypotesis that a global shared ledger under no-one's control with thermodynamical guarantee of immutability actually has some value?

There is no thermodynamic guarantee in Bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#209

Post by bb88 » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

young_unixer wrote: post #195

ayngg wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it seems like Bitcoin (and other pow cryptocurrencies) are almost like the climate change scapegoat for a number of social and economic issues that have seemingly come to a head recently to facilitate their rise. People mine because it is expensive, it isn't the other way around, so the real questions we should be asking in good faith are things like "Why it is profitable in the first place?" and I think it is…

Yes. Cryptocurrencies are used because they're the only market that hasn't yet been regulated to death. People come to Bitcoin for 2 reasons, mainly: 1. It's a practical way to store value without the government destroying it by monetary emission. 2. People are free to speculate. The solution to the first point is that governments should stop pulling the rug from under people's feet. Monetary emission should be predi…

> 1. It's a practical way to store value without the government destroying it by monetary emission.

> 2. People are free to speculate.

So it's a store of value that's destroyable by speculation. That's, if anything, worse than the US Dollar.

Re: Bitcoin miners are buying power plants

#210

Post by Vinnl » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #94

It’s a simple equation: So long as there is more money in mining BTC than there is cost in energy to mine it, mining will proceed. No entity in the world can control the price of crypto. But, we can and already do regulate energy production. I think we need a carbon tax, that is specifically a financial disincentive towards any means of energy production that directly pollutes the atmosphere. Seriously, what are the…

> what are the current best arguments against levying such a disincentive?

I think the biggest hurdle is that it is a tragedy of the commons: the entire market needs it, not just a single country...