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Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

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Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#211

Post by PragmaticPulp »

As a hiring manager, the things that stand out to me in your post:

- You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative.

- You talk about applying to Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Palantir, and other companies known to be very competitive, yet the only real job experience you list in your post is low level customer support. Nothing wrong with aiming high, but you need to also be applying to jobs that are a logical next step in your career. It's extraordinarily difficult to jump from customer support to FAANG engineer, so have a backup plan.

- You spoofed e-mails to manipulate executives into meetings. This kind of thing sounds clever in movies or from anecdotes in the 90s or 2000s, but in this era everyone is on high alert for phishing attacks and security breaches. Read the room, and don't commit computer fraud during your application process. Big companies have systems in place to catch these things and you'll get blocked in short order.

- No mention of your network. Do you have any contacts or friends or acquaintances anywhere in the industry? Even people you knew briefly from school? People who you worked with in the past who moved up? Reach out and ask if they have any advice for your job search. Going forward, make a point to stay on good terms with the people around you. You can help each other as your careers progress.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#213

Post by prawn »

hencq wrote: post #50
snakedoctor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think hiring managers think that I'm a quitter. I definitely think that I was whining too much about the Amazon role. Beggers can't be choosers. However, the no health insurance thing rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like it was a dead end job. I wish that I would've stayed with it though. I probably would've been promoted by now. I need to stay with a job and rack up some years of experience for sure. Like I…

> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks. Take this with a grain of salt, since obviously I don't actually know you or the details of this situation. However, flagging issues to your boss' boss is rarely the best way to leave a good impression. It mostly signals you have problems working within the structure of the company and yo…

And if you went up the chain with feedback/criticism, you'd want to have runs on the board with the company and also approach it very carefully with insane diplomacy/personality. It's not going to be like the movies where they say "You're an abrupt pain in the arse, but I admire that in a person. You're promoted!"

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#214

Post by [deleted] »

aphextron wrote: post #64
BeetleB wrote: post #54

So far none of the replies has mentioned this, and it may be unpopular in HN, but: Seriously consider going back to school and finishing a degree. Although it's "known" that you don't really need a degree for a SW role, there are plenty of well established old school companies that will not consider you at all unless you have a degree. On the flip side, you'll get jobs more easily. A lot of interviewers who choose to…

I would second this, and also say get any degree. A real accredited CS BS degree is incredibly difficult and time consuming. But a BA can be knocked out in 2 years and makes you infinitely more employable on paper than just a high school graduate for any position.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#215

Post by Godel_unicode »

xpe wrote: post #182
hinkley wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you call him a creep, I would call him a go getter. I've not had terribly good luck with people who use the term 'go getter.' Quite a few of them have been creeps. Smooth and slick, definitely, but at the end of the day, manipulative people who I avoid making eye contact with at public events, hoping that they don't remember me. Creeps.

I get the impression it is common for technically oriented people to think of salespeople, marketers, and recruiters as manipulative. In your view, what are some ways you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation? I've been reading about this very topic in the context of media persuasion.

For me it's whether I believe that the person genuinely cares about the good of the person they're interacting with. Very, very few sales people will stop trying to sell you a thing just because they find out you don't need it.

Put another way, persuasion is helping someone explore the topic and come to their own conclusion, manipulation is going in knowing the answer and guiding towards it. If you are trying to help someone realize a truth you knew ahead of time, you're manipulating them.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#216

Post by bawolff »

xpe wrote: post #172
hinkley wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you call him a creep, I would call him a go getter. I've not had terribly good luck with people who use the term 'go getter.' Quite a few of them have been creeps. Smooth and slick, definitely, but at the end of the day, manipulative people who I avoid making eye contact with at public events, hoping that they don't remember me. Creeps.

I wonder if you use the word creep really broadly; e.g. to include people that make you uncomfortable. Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns. I don't think it is useful to call those people creeps. Some people are certainly toxic in the context o…

> I wonder if you use the word creep really broadly; e.g. to include people that make you uncomfortable.

Isn't that the normal definition?

I guess i agree that creep is a deregatory word and not really helpful in this context. At the same time, intentionally obfuscating who you are in order to trick someone into interacting with you against their will is not ok behaviour, and well within what most people consider "creepy". Possibly even crosses the line into harrasment.

> Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns.

That's hard, but ultimately doesn't excuse actions that negatively impact other people.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#217

Post by kevinpet »

wildermuthn wrote: post #33

You’re young, inexperienced, and uneducated? College and good internships will improve upon all of that. If you can’t afford college, you’ll need to join the military (I recommend the Air Force if you want to take it easy, or the Marines if you don’t) and slave for four years. But it seems to me that your biggest stumbling block may be that you are shooting for the moon without realizing it.

I was adding this as a top level, but realized someone probably already mentioned it.

If: * you're under 30 * you don't have any health problems or diagnosed mental health issues * you don't have a criminal record (or it's trivial stuff) * you are willing to make a drastic change in your relationship to authority

then the military might be an option. You won't like it, and they absolutely not put up with any shit about you knowing better than your superiors (hint: it's completely irrelevant if you do), but that is a way to hit reset.

You mention the CIA and they can be pretty selective, but that also suggests you're okay with patriotism. Remember the way to tell a recruiter is lying is their lips are moving. If you want a specific job get it in writing, and then assume a 50:50 chance.

If you want a job that translates to the outside world and aren't keen on getting shot at, I recommend the Air Force. The Navy isn't that bad in that regard either.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#218

Post by rokobobo »

toast0 wrote: post #118
snakedoctor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about it. Community College, Deep Springs etc. I think autodidacticism is a better way to learn vs academic path. Though I didn't want to finish high school but I did.. So, it might be just one of those things that I'll have to suck up and just do. I disliked that I would have to take 2 years of core curriculum stuff before even being allowed to take major related courses. I had to reach out to instructo…

Part of what a 4 year college degree shows is that you can stick with something for four years. Combined with some of your other responses, I think it might be a good thing to have under your belt. Also, depending on the college scene, you might have more opportunities to socialize with lots of people which you may have missed with your home schooling. Depending on where you live, community college varies from amazin…

Seconded. If you aren't willing to go through school, why would you be willing to take up a job? Most entry-level jobs will generally be even more boring, require more discipline and jumping through the kind of hoops that you will not enjoy. Unless someone sees a sort of a raw genius in you, they will probably not take a gamble on you.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#219

Post by Igelau »

memling wrote: post #85
geofft wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Overqualified" in concert with your employment record of very short stints means they're worried you won't be happy at the job and you'll leave for something else. Which, bluntly, they're right to be worried about. Hiring a person has a pretty high fixed cost for the company (in time spent setting things up, doing their end of the paperwork, making time to show you the ropes, etc.), and it's only worthwhile if it's…

> For instance, if they ask you why you left Amazon, you'd better not be saying "I found an important problem and I didn't get recognition for it." Tell them you had a personal emergency or something. Can I push on that a little? Lying is a Bad Move. There are, however, ways to finesse the conversation if it comes to that. But there's literally no reason you can't just come out and say, "I wasn't getting benefits, an…

"Finessing" the conversation and telling partial truth is also lying. No one ever got hired without some lying, whether they exaggerated some part or left out another.

E.g.

"Why did you leave Company X?"

"I hated it and was fired for low performance. But I'm much better now!" said no one ever.

Say "family emergency" and they'll always take you at your word and leave it at that. Just don't overdo it -- more than one of those might look a little fishy.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#220

Post by [deleted] »

nl wrote: post #183
snakedoctor wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried out meetup.com and went to one meetup. It was ok. I felt a little uncomfortable though. They solicited for my name, and email to be added to the Slack. There was a lot of recreational clubs etc at my college. I tried rock climbing, and liked it. There wasn't a lot of social interaction with rock climbing though. I went to a party in Austin. Chatted with strangers etc. Wasn't really sure what else to talk a…

> They solicited for my name, and email to be added to the Slack. Your terminology here says a lot, right? If you are going to a meetup to meet people, then the whole point is to get to know people. And yes, that will involve them knowing your name, and communicating with you. To open up your job prospects: realize this is normal and desirable.

[deleted]
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