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Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

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Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#261

Post by sillysaurusx »

stale2002 wrote: post #240
sillysaurusx wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. That's Costco's right, and it's an example of the system working as intended. Let me ask you this. Do you agree with illegal copyright infringement being classified as "piracy"? My issue here is the terminology. It's deceptive to classify this behavior as "abuse," as if someone was kicking a puppy. It's an asshole thing to do, but it's not abuse. No one is doing anything illegal, and everyone is free to feel…

Actually you are wrong. There are absolutely laws against return abuse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud This is the problem when people go around pretending like they are technically correct, when they aren't. Everyone else, intuitively understood the problem with return abuse, except for you. Which is why you got this wrong. If you had focused less on trying to find some clever hack or technically, then y…

No, there's nothing in that list even vaguely related to anything I've said. It shares a name. It's not the same thing at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud#Types

Not one of those examples is "the act of purchasing an item with the intent to return it."

Also, be less aggressive. We're having a conversation here. It's not a battle.

The entry you're looking for is Wardrobing, and it's most certainly not illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardrobing

The Talk page even has someone asking the very same question I am: Why is it fraud? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wardrobing

It's not fraud. It's not "abuse," and it's not illegal. You're free to feel however you wish about it.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#262

Post by truth_ »

easton wrote: post #102
truth_ wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew of a guy who "bought" Apple Laptops from Amazon and used it as his DJ laptop and worked some gigs where the Apple laptop was a status symbol of how big a deal he is. He used to perform in small town and rural India and organizers paid him ₹3k-30k per night. He returned his laptop after doing 3-4 such gigs in the "marriage season" in India. He did this 7-8 times from different addresses and different accounts.

After 21 gigs (3 gigs * 7 laptops) he would've made around 21k USD (presuming he was making at least 10k rupees per night, which between 3k-30k would've made sense). Seems like at that point you just buy the darn laptop, it's not like you need something more than an Air for DJing, and 1/21th of your revenue to be legal seems like not a bad idea.

He is a scammer. He had no DJ training either. To most people living in rural India, "DJ" is just loud beats added to an existing song and abruptly cutting them and playing another one. He is not a real DJ, and he had bills to pay.

No, he mostly got paid ₹3-₹4k per night. Purchasing power of rural India is very low.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#263

Post by bobbylarrybobby »

gambiting wrote: post #124
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my experience Americans sort of take for granted the breadth and depth of consumer protection you enjoy. As a european, it's amusing to hear you say that as the majority of European countries have far, far more stringent consumer-protection regs than the US, such as mandatory 2 year warranties, distance-selling laws, legal rights to a refund or replacement, and so on. Apple's 90 day warranty is a joke when you c…

And everywhere in EU sellers have to accept a return within 14 days for any online purchases, for any reason. And no, they can't charge a restocking fee. You can only be asked to pay for the postage back. And in general, the responsibility for the goods is always with the seller first, manufacturer second. If your laptop breaks and the seller says "oh the manufacturer declined warranty" then sorry, tough luck, it's t…

Aren’t the customers who don’t return their purchases subsidizing the cost of the ones who do? I’d much prefer to pay a restocking fee (or to have more stringent return policies) if it meant I could pay a little less up front.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#264

Post by threatofrain »

tumblewit wrote: post #93
sss111 wrote: post #31

Apple had a lot of trouble with the Indian market back the early 2010s. They had to pull AppleCare+ out of the country because people were abusing it a lot. [†] Same goes for the country's biggest online retailers, both Amazon and Flipkart also switched to a replacement-only policy in India. "Most analysts agree that many many buyers were abusing the company's refund policy. With many buying latest smartphones, and r…

Remember Apple sells its refurbished products. Yes it costs them (and as sales increase they also get more returns) to refurbish and sell them back but not accepting returns or refunds is a completely anti-consumer and not a customer friendly policy for a company that claims is all about the customer.

If Apple can’t effectively administrate their nice plans and the consequence is that a few abusers ruin it for everyone, then it’s better for customers to not have it. Too bad.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#265

Post by [deleted] »

philistine wrote: post #229
kelnos wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely disagreeing with you, but if we want to stop companies from avoiding tax, we should change the tax code. Apple has gone and done the analog of that; they've changed the returns code. I don't see anything wrong with what Apple has done here, and if the US decided to tighten up the tax code, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that either. To your actual point, I think it's about intent and spirit. The hole…

A legislator implementing a tax code is not an all-seeing god able to divine all the consequences of their proposed law. They have an intent, sure, but to say that every consequence of their actions are intentional, that's too simplistic. The result, which is that large corporations have a tax rate lower than small businesses, is what is important. Do you want a company, as it grows bigger and spends more on the lega…

[deleted]

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#266

Post by stale2002 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #261
stale2002 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you are wrong. There are absolutely laws against return abuse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud This is the problem when people go around pretending like they are technically correct, when they aren't. Everyone else, intuitively understood the problem with return abuse, except for you. Which is why you got this wrong. If you had focused less on trying to find some clever hack or technically, then y…

No, there's nothing in that list even vaguely related to anything I've said. It shares a name. It's not the same thing at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud#Types Not one of those examples is "the act of purchasing an item with the intent to return it." Also, be less aggressive. We're having a conversation here. It's not a battle. The entry you're looking for is Wardrobing, and it's most certainly not il…

> It's not fraud. It's not "abuse," and it's not illegal

Yes it is. You are wrong.

https://www.news24.com/w24/Style/Fashion/Trends/wardrobing-e...

From the article:

"as it is an act that can, in fact, be prosecute"

https://www.spatzlawfirm.com/blog/2019/08/what-is-return-fra...

"Purchasing an item and using it for a short period of time before returning (also known as wardrobing or “free renting”)"

Its illegal. Thats what the sources say. The 2nd link is from a law firm. Your facts are wrong.

> https://www.findlaw.com/consumer/consumer-transactions/retur...

"Below are some common types of return fraud:

Wardrobing (or "renting"): Buying clothes or other items for one-time use and then returning them"

" For example, wardrobing may be next to impossible to prove"

https://www.allcriminaldefense.law/what-is-criminal-return-f...

"People that engage in ‘wardrobing’ or ‘free renting,’ are also committing return fraud."

https://www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/fraud-against-retaile...

" Return fraud

Renting or Wardrobing: When someone buys an item specifically on a short-term basis with the intent to return it, this is known as renting or wardrobing. An example is buying a dress for a special occasion and returning it after it has been worn."

https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/credit-cards/worn...

"Wardrobing might sound like an innocent thing to do—after all, many of us have returned something we've already worn at least once in our lives. But the truth is that wardrobing is actually considered "return fraud."

"It's technically illegal""

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#267

Post by asimpletune »

wolfretcrap wrote: post #146
sss111 wrote: post #31

Apple had a lot of trouble with the Indian market back the early 2010s. They had to pull AppleCare+ out of the country because people were abusing it a lot. [†] Same goes for the country's biggest online retailers, both Amazon and Flipkart also switched to a replacement-only policy in India. "Most analysts agree that many many buyers were abusing the company's refund policy. With many buying latest smartphones, and r…

It's not as bad in US and reason is purely economics of fraud. Very large fraction of US population is paid $30 an hour compared to Indian population which makes scamming not worth the trouble I live in India and I've worked in the US I know Indians just have too much time at their hand, so even schemes which take a lot of your time with little payoff are worth it here. And the reason people don't use their time to a…

I’ve been in Mexico for a few months and it sort of the same situation here. Sometimes I find it outright bizarre how hostile the government is to simple things that would allow people to improve their station in life on their own with a business.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#268

Post by nucleardog »

wrs wrote: post #159
akamia wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was also really common with TVs during the Super Bowl. People would come in and buy the biggest TV they could get, have their Super Bowl party and then return the TV.

That why the Costco policy no longer applies to electronics (they’re time-limited now). But it’s at manager discretion, so if you seem to have a genuine problem they’ll still take something back after the limit.

That was less about the Superbowl returns (the return window on electronics is 90 days, you can easily get a TV, have a Superbowl party, and return it still).

It's more the depreciation and how quickly electronics evolve. People were using the returns as a free lifetime of upgrades.

One particularly stark example when I worked there a long time ago was someone who wanted to upgrade their old projection TV.

So four years after they bought it they brought it in and returned it. They got about $4k back. They walked out on the floor, picked up a brand new LCD TV for $2k and almost half a decade after their original purchase they walked out with a brand new, upgraded TV and $2k in their pocket.

You can imagine how this can be abused with most electronics that Costco sells. Imagine going in and getting a brand new upgraded laptop every 2-3 years for the rest of your life after a single couple thousand dollar purchase.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#269

Post by sillysaurusx »

stale2002 wrote: post #266
sillysaurusx wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there's nothing in that list even vaguely related to anything I've said. It shares a name. It's not the same thing at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud#Types Not one of those examples is "the act of purchasing an item with the intent to return it." Also, be less aggressive. We're having a conversation here. It's not a battle. The entry you're looking for is Wardrobing, and it's most certainly not il…

> It's not fraud. It's not "abuse," and it's not illegal Yes it is. You are wrong. https://www.news24.com/w24/Style/Fashion/Trends/wardrobing-e... From the article: "as it is an act that can, in fact, be prosecute" https://www.spatzlawfirm.com/blog/2019/08/what-is-return-fra... "Purchasing an item and using it for a short period of time before returning (also known as wardrobing or “free renting”)" Its illegal. Thats…

Again, you keep referencing links that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

- In a recent Florida case , a Miami socialite, Meghana Rajadhyaksha, was found guilty for purchasing over $130k in designer purses from retail giant TJ MAXX and also purchasing similar knock-offs from Amazon where she swapped the designer tags out and returned the Amazon knock-offs to TJ MAXX to receive a full refund.

I agree this is fraud! That's literally deceiving in order to receive money. There's nothing deceptive about using a policy that the store offers.

- The Florida statutes define return fraud as obtaining or using a receipt in a fraudulent manner

Ditto.

You're free to keep repeating that I have no idea what I'm talking about and so on, but at this point it's becoming quite boring for readers, and everything has been said. We simply agree to disagree, and that's that.

Now, please stop calling me a criminal. It's not nice, and it's also not accurate.

If you dig up a single case of someone being prosecuted for using a policy that the store offers, without modifying the receipt or the item, let me know.

Re: Products purchased at Apple Store in India cannot be refunded or exchanged

#270

Post by stale2002 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #269
stale2002 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not fraud. It's not "abuse," and it's not illegal Yes it is. You are wrong. https://www.news24.com/w24/Style/Fashion/Trends/wardrobing-e... From the article: "as it is an act that can, in fact, be prosecute" https://www.spatzlawfirm.com/blog/2019/08/what-is-return-fra... "Purchasing an item and using it for a short period of time before returning (also known as wardrobing or “free renting”)" Its illegal. Thats…

Again, you keep referencing links that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. - In a recent Florida case , a Miami socialite, Meghana Rajadhyaksha, was found guilty for purchasing over $130k in designer purses from retail giant TJ MAXX and also purchasing similar knock-offs from Amazon where she swapped the designer tags out and returned the Amazon knock-offs to TJ MAXX to receive a full refund. I agree this is f…

I quoted you like 7 sources. (I editted it afterwords, sorry)

Read them again.

There are multiple sources, that I quoted, that literally say that it is illegal. They use the words illegal to describe wardrobing.

> Now, please stop calling me a criminal.

Well the sources say that you are a criminal.

One specifically said "It's technically illegal"

> We simply agree to disagree,

No. The lawyers say that you are wrong. The actual legal websites say that you are a criminal. They literally call it illegal.

Here was another quote "People that engage in ‘wardrobing’ or ‘free renting,’ are also committing return fraud."

Return fraud, in this quote, is referencing the Florida law.

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