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EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

reuters.com

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Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#191

Post by morsch »

petre wrote: post #150
josefx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might just be the straw that broke the camels back. As far as I remember the contracts the EU signed turned out to be incredibly one sided, with deliveries getting cut down when someone found out that more dosages could be extracted, no hard delivery requirements leading to constant shortages, etc. . Not getting out of that mess when alternatives exist seems like a bad idea.

This is very likely a political decision. AZ has not honoured their "best effort" contract obligations, the company priortized UK deliveries to honour their other contract and Western Europeans are reluctant to take it because it's less well tolerated than mRNA vaccines and now the very rare blood clot issues. It's too bad, because vaccination rollouts are well behind schedule with less than 10% or so of the EU popul…

less than 10% or so of the EU population vaccinated

Around 16% if you count first dose vaccinations (which evidently you do). Doesn't change your major point, though.

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#192

Post by phnofive »

throwawayboise wrote: post #143
donretag wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA is a decade in the making, which is why they were able to target/isolate a COVID-19 vaccine is a very short time. Two weeks I believe, someone please correct me.

I think it was more like two days. Very quick.

To be fair, the previously published genome gave a big head start - not sure how long that took though.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#193

Post by Pitrocelli »

foepys wrote: post #81
djbebs wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure the EU paid around the same price as the US

The EU could've issued an export ban for Covid vaccines like the US and UK did but did not want to. There would have been 34 million more doses available until the end of March if they had done it. But even in these times, the EU rather supports their allies than revert to nationalism. It could pay dividends in the future.

I completely agree. USA has been hoarding millions of doses of then unapproved AstraZeneca (in USA) while central Europe was hit so hard my home city was thinking about changing Hockey stadium to giant morgue since they run out of capacity.

UK received millions of dozes of AZ from European factory, it was never the case other way around.

I may be biased, and I would like to be wrong here. Please tell me how USA and UK helped Europe with vaccines, how they did not succumb into deepest nationalism.

I never witness somebody from USA or UK acknowledge this. Only some comment from Canadians being grateful that they receive vaccines from Europe while USA is not exporting any. (I know this changed later and they started export to Mexico)

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#194

Post by incrudible »

ericb wrote: post #182
incrudible wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'd have to distinguish between physical symptoms that are well-known long-term effects of viral infections and psychosomatic disorders that may be triggered without any infection whatsoever. Losing your sense of smell, even permanently, is a known side-effect of Influenza infection: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23948436/ The same is true for many inflammatory conditions, such as myocarditis. As for diffuse sympt…

Covid isn't influenza and these were verified cases. You seem to be working from a position of motivated reasoning, so I'm going to opt out of trying to convince you.

Indeed, Sars-CoV2 isn't Influenza, but its symptoms are anything but unique to respiratory illnesses and viral infections.

A popular media narrative has arisen, claiming that COVID poses some unique health risks that weren't already facts of life to some degree. This is then used for justifying endless interventions, re-arranging our whole lives around this one new illness.

This can cause panic among the psychologically vulnerable population, causing the very symptoms that are now attributed to "long COVID". I wouldn't phrase it quite as polemically as my flagged cousin, but there is truth to what they are saying.

> You seem to be working from a position of motivated reasoning, so I'm going to opt out of trying to convince you.

I don't even know what you would want convince me of. We probably agree for the most part. Sars-CoV2 isn't Influenza and (in aggregate) it is more dangerous than Influenza. It made everyday life riskier.

We may or may not agree on what an appropriate response to this new risk is. Either way, we both are susceptible to motivated reasoning. That shouldn't prevent us from having a conversation.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#195

Post by incrudible »

jean_tta wrote: post #76
seriousquestion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long Covid is mostly self reported vague symptoms, namely fatigue and brain fog. It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet. Isolation? The Covid 15* that many of us packed on? You will feel worse and especially more fatigued, no doubt. Not to mention being constantly immersed in an environment of fear. It's a misattribution to associate side effects of weight…

It is my understanding that many doctors have found "long covid" to 1. be a thing and 2. have specific, unexpected symptoms. Now it is possible that they are all wrong, but could you perhaps give a few arguments why you are right and all those doctors are wrong? [0] unfortunately I only have a French source on this https://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2021/03/22/epuisemen...

I can't really concern myself with a paywalled source in French.

"Long COVID" is a thing, but is it something unique and specific? Probably not:

https://www.vox.com/22298751/long-term-side-effects-covid-19...

As for ME/CFS being psychosomatic, that's a bit more controversial, with doctors on either side. Nothing is proven either way. Still, symptoms such as fatigue and brain fog are consistent with ME/CFS.

We like to dismiss such symptoms when it is convenient, e.g. when it occurs as a side-effect of a vaccine, while taking it rather serious when it occurs after some hyped-up new illness such as COVID. In either cases, it could simply be the Nocebo effect at work.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#196

Post by Dma54rhs »

hef19898 wrote: post #29
kube-system wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fairly common for private businesses like pharmacies/clinics/hospitals to have vaccines in much of the world, no?

And you can walk in there and buy it like, say, a bottle of oke? Not without going through a doctor before hand, the same doctor who administers the shot after you picked it up at the pharmacy.

Well yes, that is how you can buy influenenza and many other shots in many many EU countries. I once drove to another country (yo Portugal) to buy a specific vaccine for my sisters kid. Their region had ran out. After getting it from pharma I drove straight to the nurse where they were waiting to get the shot but the kind pharmacist also told me I can store it ik my fridge.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#197

Post by DoingIsLearning »

tpm wrote: post #160
andy_ppp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird one isn't it - 1/40,000 but they only gave 150,000 doses out. This seems like the error bars on this would be huge - we've seen in the UK very few of these events with millions vaccinated which is pretty strange. Is there something different about Denmark and Britain at this time of year? I've had the AZ vaccine 1st dose 3 weeks ago now and I keep getting very concerned by the ever changing picture; is i…

I think they have also used Norway's numbers. As to the difference, maybe they first vaccinated health professionals with AZ and UK mostly vaccinated older people with it, so different issues became apparent? It affects mostly younger women, so it would manifest pretty clearly with female nurses.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is that staff nurses, instrument nurses, etc. spend much more time standing up in a stationary position (not walking or sitting) compared with other healthcare workers in a hospital setting.

Everyone is jumping to focus on young females/genetics but it could really just be occupation related, most of these nurses will have their vacine shot on-site and continue their daily shift afterwards (where they stand orthostatic for several hours).

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#198

Post by tpm »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #197
tpm wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they have also used Norway's numbers. As to the difference, maybe they first vaccinated health professionals with AZ and UK mostly vaccinated older people with it, so different issues became apparent? It affects mostly younger women, so it would manifest pretty clearly with female nurses.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is that staff nurses, instrument nurses, etc. spend much more time standing up in a stationary position (not walking or sitting) compared with other healthcare workers in a hospital setting. Everyone is jumping to focus on young females/genetics but it could really just be occupation related, most of these nurses will have their vacine shot on-site and continue their daily shift aft…

I can only speculate since I know next to nothing about that but AFAIK those thromboses are not in leg veins but in different parts of the body - in the brain (Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis), lungs (embolism) etc.

Also the mechanism which causes this seems to be better understood now - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104840

"Vaccination with ChAdOx1 nCov-19 can result in the rare development of immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia mediated by platelet-activating antibodies against PF4, which clinically mimics autoimmune heparin-induced thrombocytopenia."

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#199

Post by jean_tta »

incrudible wrote: post #195
jean_tta wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is my understanding that many doctors have found "long covid" to 1. be a thing and 2. have specific, unexpected symptoms. Now it is possible that they are all wrong, but could you perhaps give a few arguments why you are right and all those doctors are wrong? [0] unfortunately I only have a French source on this https://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2021/03/22/epuisemen...

I can't really concern myself with a paywalled source in French. "Long COVID" is a thing, but is it something unique and specific? Probably not: https://www.vox.com/22298751/long-term-side-effects-covid-19... As for ME/CFS being psychosomatic, that's a bit more controversial, with doctors on either side. Nothing is proven either way. Still, symptoms such as fatigue and brain fog are consistent with ME/CFS. We like to…

I apologize for not being American and the press in my country costing money. I'll try to do better next time.

I note that your link astablishes that long covid is the thing, which the parent comment denies.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#200

Post by incrudible »

jean_tta wrote: post #199
incrudible wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't really concern myself with a paywalled source in French. "Long COVID" is a thing, but is it something unique and specific? Probably not: https://www.vox.com/22298751/long-term-side-effects-covid-19... As for ME/CFS being psychosomatic, that's a bit more controversial, with doctors on either side. Nothing is proven either way. Still, symptoms such as fatigue and brain fog are consistent with ME/CFS. We like to…

I apologize for not being American and the press in my country costing money. I'll try to do better next time. I note that your link astablishes that long covid is the thing, which the parent comment denies.

> I apologize for not being American...

There's nothing wrong with not being American. You should apologize for being French.

> ...and the press in my country costing money.

Indeed, it's absurd to charge money for articles written in French. They should pay you for reading them.

> I note that your link astablishes that long covid is the thing, which the parent comment denies.

Nobody in this thread denies that it exists. We're talking about what it is and is not.

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