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Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#71

Post by ceilingcorner »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #58
ceilingcorner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere did I say that prohibition is a good idea. The article isn’t about that, it’s about using drugs to “cure” depression.

In cases where depression is caused by whackadoodle brain chemistry, this might actually be a completely reasonable answer.

Yes probably, but the most upvoted example in this topic is about curing depression from lockdowns.

I don’t want to live in a world where the cure to depression caused by forced lockdowns is to take psychedelics. That seems very dystopian.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#72

Post by krageon »

abgr-y wrote: post #28

I don't believe drugs whether prescribed or recreational can cure Mental disorders. yes they may alleviate the symptoms but they don't really work on the root cause which are basically ones mental tendencies, thought patterns or habits acquired over a period of time. here[0] is a different take on what depression is and gives a high level road map to come out of it, for more details this [1] is a book by the same aut…

Not all depression is attributable to environmental factors. If it is, the environmental factors is what a psychologist looks at with you. If it's not, you use some sort of medication to solve it. Reducing every kind of thing that you can get medication for that isn't entirely physical to a "mental disorder" is both dismissive and kind of insulting, which really doesn't help the point you're trying to make here.

Which appears to be that some random book has all the answers that somehow nobody else has really figured out. Oh, and there's an app!

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#73

Post by DoreenMichele »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #71
DoreenMichele wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cases where depression is caused by whackadoodle brain chemistry, this might actually be a completely reasonable answer.

Yes probably, but the most upvoted example in this topic is about curing depression from lockdowns. I don’t want to live in a world where the cure to depression caused by forced lockdowns is to take psychedelics. That seems very dystopian.

What causes depression during lockdown? Is it lack of exposure to sunlight? Is it lack of exercise? Is it eating more poorly? Is it people being confined to spaces that may not be that clean that they normally leave during the day, thus exposing them to more mold and germs?

It isn't necessarily dystopian. It may still be a valid and genuine treatment, though I agree it would be better to understand more thoroughly why it works, not just that it works.

A former medical professional once told me "The answers you want for how this OTC drug works at the cellular level don't exist. That isn't actually what drug studies cover."

I don't disagree with your aims. I simply disagree with some of your implicit assumptions.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#74

Post by arcticbull »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #69
arcticbull wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to believe that unless proven otherwise, substances should be legal. The burden of proof IMO is on the folks who want to restrain behavior. [edit] I don't think that producing a study that shows a lack of harm is going to change anyone's mind. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that. I think if this was based on a genuine fear, the study would have preceded…

I agree but I’m talking tactically. Legalization requires convincing people that don’t think the same way, and the best method for doing that is by rigorous medical study. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological.

> Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological.

Haha, ok, well, in that case, on what basis were drugs banned? Specifically psychedelics.

> We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place.

The current attitude is "drugs are bad" because of childhood education programs. Drugs are bad because they're illegal. You've seen the PSAs. It was never evidence based to begin with, then the "puritans" (DARE) switched to youth indoctrination. It's been so long now that there "must be a good reason."

It was never logical, or evidence based, and it remains illogical, and not evidence based. Bringing evidence to an illogical conversation IMO is like bringing an inflatable flamingo to a fancy dinner. People will look quizzically, and you won't change minds.

But hey, here's hoping I'm wrong.

After all when Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 all the negative health factors and societal factors associated with drug use fell off a cliff -- and usage did not increase. That's all the evidence I need to follow suit.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#75

Post by ceilingcorner »

arcticbull wrote: post #74
ceilingcorner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but I’m talking tactically. Legalization requires convincing people that don’t think the same way, and the best method for doing that is by rigorous medical study. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological.

> Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological. Haha, ok, well, in that case, on what basis were drugs banned? Specifically psychedelics. > We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place. The current attitude is "drugs are bad" because of childhood education programs. Drugs are bad because they're illegal. You've seen the PSAs. It was never evidence based…

That isn’t what your comment said. You said “no amount of evidence is going to change it”.

We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#76

Post by ceilingcorner »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #73
ceilingcorner wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes probably, but the most upvoted example in this topic is about curing depression from lockdowns. I don’t want to live in a world where the cure to depression caused by forced lockdowns is to take psychedelics. That seems very dystopian.

What causes depression during lockdown? Is it lack of exposure to sunlight? Is it lack of exercise? Is it eating more poorly? Is it people being confined to spaces that may not be that clean that they normally leave during the day, thus exposing them to more mold and germs? It isn't necessarily dystopian. It may still be a valid and genuine treatment, though I agree it would be better to understand more thoroughly wh…

What are my implicit assumptions? That locking human beings in their houses is by default a negative thing that will cause depression?

That seems obvious to me. Animals don’t like being in cages.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#77

Post by theelous3 »

krageon wrote: post #64
collyw wrote: post #59

Here in Europe someone gave politicians the idea that they could control a virus. So now we have arbitrary sets of restrictions applied when case numbers of coronavirus go up. If case numbers go down again, they get relaxed. If they go up, add more restrictions are added until they go down. The restrictions are follow the case numbers, but we have convinced ourselves it is the other way around. It's a modern day witc…

Measures to contain COVID-19 exist globally and if you have great cosmic insight into the fact that they don't work, perhaps you could share that instead of sarcasm without any basis.

They are saying they do work, but only when they are implemented. They are unimplemented when the numbers get low, which causes them to go back up, and has the effect of starting the cycle again.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#78

Post by solaceb »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #58
ceilingcorner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere did I say that prohibition is a good idea. The article isn’t about that, it’s about using drugs to “cure” depression.

In cases where depression is caused by whackadoodle brain chemistry, this might actually be a completely reasonable answer.

We don't know whackadoodle brain chemistry from Adam; it's a massive assumption to attribute depression towards something so misunderstood as our neurochemistry. You might as well say it's due to the phlogiston in our heads.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#79

Post by DoreenMichele »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #76
DoreenMichele wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What causes depression during lockdown? Is it lack of exposure to sunlight? Is it lack of exercise? Is it eating more poorly? Is it people being confined to spaces that may not be that clean that they normally leave during the day, thus exposing them to more mold and germs? It isn't necessarily dystopian. It may still be a valid and genuine treatment, though I agree it would be better to understand more thoroughly wh…

What are my implicit assumptions? That locking human beings in their houses is by default a negative thing that will cause depression? That seems obvious to me. Animals don’t like being in cages.

That it's merely psychological, not biological.

I'm not depressed. I'm a brunette for the first time in a decade or more. I live without a car and the sun typically keeps my hair bleached out to a shade of blonde.

But I have a serious medical condition and already did remote work and germ control is my life.

I had a longstanding issue resolve about six months. For the first time in decades, I'm mostly not suicidal anymore.

To whatever degree depression is biological in origin, drugs may be a reasonable treatment.

Granted, curing sick building syndrome and other root causes may be better in the long run. But it can take ages to confidently identify such things, educate people, find solutions, etc.

In the mean time, a new drug option for a biologically based ailment may do wonders for people in the here and now.

I routinely treat somatopsychic issues with diet and exercise. I also routinely get dismissed by internet strangers as a nutter.

So I'm confident that the answer you want both exists and will take an excessively long time to distribute to a meaningful portion of the human population.

Re: Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

#80

Post by vermilingua »

acchow wrote: post #50
internetslave wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of people whose minds were ruined by psychedelics. It’s something you will see when you spend time in those communities. It doesn’t happen to everyone, but it’s common.

In what way were their minds ruined?

Any psychadelics (and I think cannabis as well, but much more rarely) can cause a psychotic break, which can’t always be recovered from. It seems to be more prevalent if there is a family history of psychosis.

No source, just anecdata, the circles I run in.

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