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EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

reuters.com

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Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#181

Post by ac29 »

bmj wrote: post #82
shlant wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

although we do not have data yet to show if there are any side effects 1+ years after vaccination, it would be very unlikely that there would be. Serious side effects from vaccines are almost always immediate and seen within a few weeks after administration, not months or years later. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history....

Except this particular vaccination mechanism (mRNA) has never been licensed for use in humans. Yes, there has been research, but never any sort of trial on the scale of what is happening right now. So, we really don't know what the long term effects of this particular type of vaccine are. I'm not trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines that have been approved. Rather, I'm simply pointing out we don't hav…

mRNA is rapidly degraded once in the body (really anywhere that isnt cold storage), existing for hours to days at most after injection. There isnt a really plausible reason why there would be no serious short term side effects reported after hundreds of millions of shots, but a hidden risk of long term serious side effects.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#182

Post by ericb »

incrudible wrote: post #151
ericb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? Yesterday I met a woman whose husband has lost his sense of smell for 4+ months and still has not regained it. My lungs still hurt sometimes on deep breaths 6 months later.

We'd have to distinguish between physical symptoms that are well-known long-term effects of viral infections and psychosomatic disorders that may be triggered without any infection whatsoever. Losing your sense of smell, even permanently, is a known side-effect of Influenza infection: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23948436/ The same is true for many inflammatory conditions, such as myocarditis. As for diffuse sympt…

Covid isn't influenza and these were verified cases. You seem to be working from a position of motivated reasoning, so I'm going to opt out of trying to convince you.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#183

Post by guitarbill »

surfsvammel wrote: post #161
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

I think the big issue is that people are afraid of the active risk of the vaccine (more so than the passive risk of not getting the shot). I think that even rational people have this fear to some degree. We need to help people deal with that fear. Something I see very little of. I know that kind of fear personally, I’m on meds with risks orders of magnitude worse than that vaccines and that have been (and still is) a…

This is probably the most underrated comment. Very few people think twice about e.g. driving a car, but a lot of people are scared of flying. It can also be as simple as being afraid of needles; when I get vaccinated I barely feel it but even knowing that I'm still apprehensive beforehand.

Hopefully, as more people get vaccinated, it will become somewhat normalised (in communities that aren't actively against it). If all your mates did it, it's probably fine. (no sarcasm)

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#184

Post by guitarbill »

JamisonM wrote: post #154
rossdavidh wrote: post #67

Even if true (and apparently some German officials are saying it isn't), the contracts go through the end of 2021 is my understanding, so that makes these announcements a bit less significant than the headlines suggests. To be honest, it seems like there is an argument to be made that the rich countries _should_ stop buying the J&J and AZ vaccines, except perhaps to donate to poorer countries, because the mRNA vaccin…

The rich countries shouldn't stop buying they should buy and give away for sure. Not some strings-attached bullshit but just straight-up dropping refrigerated containers of them at airports. Politics is unfortunately going to get in the way of that.

COVAX is a thing, so there's hope. But even the usual politics aside, it's going to be a hard sell if you can't even get your own population vaccinated quickly and safely.

Also, let's be realistic here - there's more to vaccine distribution than just dropping refrigerated containers of perishable vaccines off. I get the intention of the sentence, but just giving away doses is not in itself a recipe for success or helping people. Helping implementing/building medical infrastructure and expertise out is a gift that will keep on giving.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#185

Post by rasz »

skrause wrote: post #11
Pick-A-Hill2019 wrote: post #2

Seems rather short sighted in my opinion given that the current scientific consensus is that Covid will become a seasonal thing as it mutates which means that booster shots will probably be needed. Given that amount of R&D funds that the two companies have put in I would imagine they would be reluctant to join in efforts to produce a vaccination for future variations.

The EU Commission has just started negotiations with BioNTech-Pfizer for 1.8 billion additional vaccine doses in 2021-2023: https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1382306561008230400 They're simply betting on mRNA only, so AstraZeneca and J&J won't be needed anymore.

Announcing to the world you really want this particular product and you just cancelled all competing contracts is the best negotiation tactic ever!!1

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#186

Post by throwaway189262 »

jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

These are both Adenovirus vectored vaccines. My theory is that plain Adenovirus also causes clots, but likewise at percentages so low you would never see them in data. Unless you infected millions of people with the same strain, like these vaccines do.

There's studies dating back many years showing that adenoviruses can cause clots and thrombocytopenia in rodents.

The lesson might end up being, surprisingly, that mRNA vaccines are both safer and more effective than traditional vaccines

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#187

Post by guitarbill »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #167
s_dev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems incredible now the University of Pennsylvania told the inventor mRNA that their contributions weren't worthwhile and let them go. https://billypenn.com/2020/12/29/university-pennsylvania-cov... And now on social media they've done a full 180 and are acting as if it were their contribution to the world when the reality is quite different.

Im not sure what exactly the criticism of UPenn is here. Is the criticism that the university mistreated Karikó or set unrealistic expectations? IS the criticism that the university lacked the foresight to know how valuable her contributions would be 30 years later and didn't adequately support or compensate her? I don’t know where this idea that untenured university faculty should should not be expected to meet the…

We know it's hard to predict the future, and how research might be useful - lasers are a famous example. So yeah, research institutions tying research to the value of the contributions, instead of rewarding quality research is maybe worthy of criticism (but sadly common).

Personally, I'd guess it's the two-faced-ness of it all is a bigger one. Not being supportive, i.e. demoting/blocking tenure for Karikó, while at the same time being happy to patent the research, trying to use it as PR 7 years later (once it was shown to be useful), and potentially strategically omitting details. Just leaves a bad taste behind when you find out about the background. Probably without the PR, there'd be less criticism.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#188

Post by chii »

JamisonM wrote: post #154
rossdavidh wrote: post #67

Even if true (and apparently some German officials are saying it isn't), the contracts go through the end of 2021 is my understanding, so that makes these announcements a bit less significant than the headlines suggests. To be honest, it seems like there is an argument to be made that the rich countries _should_ stop buying the J&J and AZ vaccines, except perhaps to donate to poorer countries, because the mRNA vaccin…

The rich countries shouldn't stop buying they should buy and give away for sure. Not some strings-attached bullshit but just straight-up dropping refrigerated containers of them at airports. Politics is unfortunately going to get in the way of that.

"Never let a good crisis go to waste" as they say - political concessions would be squeezed out of nations needing the vaccine but not able to pay for it. China is doing it, the Eurozone and US are doing it. Everybody is doing it.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#189

Post by saurik »

throwaway189262 wrote: post #186
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

These are both Adenovirus vectored vaccines. My theory is that plain Adenovirus also causes clots, but likewise at percentages so low you would never see them in data. Unless you infected millions of people with the same strain, like these vaccines do. There's studies dating back many years showing that adenoviruses can cause clots and thrombocytopenia in rodents. The lesson might end up being, surprisingly, that mRN…

Viral vector vaccines have a bit more real-world testing than mRNA vaccines, but they certainly aren't "traditional": there are only a few vaccines developed with this technology--for Dengue fever and Ebola--that have ever been authorized for use, and most within the last couple years; the classic notion of a vaccine--and all of our "traditional" vaccines--are either inactive or attenuated strains.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#190

Post by saurik »

hef19898 wrote: post #148
Imnimo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that adenovirus vaccines have only been been approved in the past year or two - a few for Ebola and the new ones for Covid. Are there others that have been around before that? It doesn't seem like it really matters if adenovirus vector vaccines is an "old idea" - after all, the idea of using MRNA has also been around for a long time. But if we've only started actually using them recently, h…

They are tested and researched since at least 2004. Not for Covid-19 of course.

And mRNA vaccines were first tested in the 90s and started getting more substantial research in 2008: the timelines seem similar?
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