Live data from Hacker News

What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

talyarkoni.org

91–100 of 102 posts

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read it again. The comment you are mindlessly bashing is talking about men having more confidence in the ability to learn on the fly, not having more ability to learn on the fly.

I’m not mindlessly bashing anything, I’m speaking up about mindless sexism. You should read it again from the perspective that men and and women are equal, and that “men having more confidence” is a damaging psychology to have (sexist).

> from the perspective that men and and women are equal

Do you mean "identical"?

I wonder what makes you think that men and women would function precisely the same? (Apart from physical things)

People can be different, but still be equal (as in equality)

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#92
post #85
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how they conducted the experiment, but they mention something about a science assessment. If you ask about math and science, men are going to believe they're more competent than they actually are because they've been socialized to believe they're better at it. If they asked about cooking or cleaning, you'd probably get the opposite reaction. Of course men aren't inherently better at math nor are women be…

> men are going to believe they're more competent ... because they've been socialized to believe they're better at it. That's one of the central dogmatic feminist talking points that are just spouted off uncritically, along with other things men are supposedly socialised for, like wage negotiation and preferences for violence, taking up space and technical subject matter. Included is the starting position that women…

The issue at hand is that working women make considerably less money overall than working men. This is due to any number of factors including sexism, social effects, and the necessity of being present at, key, moments of the child rearing process. In the current iteration of our capitalist system it's required for nearly everyone to work, especially in the lower classes. Women have all the same needs that men have, and they have to cope in a society that, for many reasons, pays them 30% less.

Identifying those factors and working to minimize or eliminate their affect is a noble goal. But there are some factors that can't be eliminated, and we wouldn't want to live in a world where they were.

Feminists are right that there is a problem, this is a demonstrably unfair society. It doesn't matter what the reason is as much as it matters what the solution is. People spend a huge amount of time arguing about the problem, who's fault is it, what factors come into play.

I don't want to live in a world where women are men. Where they can't take time to start a family and properly care for their children, because keeping the money flowing is a more immediate need.

I want to live in a world where you can't just take time off to raise a child, but also to do art, or to travel, or to simply be a human who exists outside their office.

TLDR: Why matters very little, the income gap exists and we should fix it.

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#93
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You overestimated how well you understood my comment. I was commenting on the irony of how people bring up dunning kruger to insult other people. Why bother going to the effort trying to correct someone without bothering to take 30 seconds to even read their comment?

Relax friend, I did read your comment before replying and I was agreeing with you that it's ironic. I guess I did misunderstand your statement about precise meaning, but what exactly makes you think I was trying to insult you? I wasn't, and I apologize for giving that impression.

[deleted]

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#94
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You overestimated how well you understood my comment. I was commenting on the irony of how people bring up dunning kruger to insult other people. Why bother going to the effort trying to correct someone without bothering to take 30 seconds to even read their comment?

Relax friend, I did read your comment before replying and I was agreeing with you that it's ironic. I guess I did misunderstand your statement about precise meaning, but what exactly makes you think I was trying to insult you? I wasn't, and I apologize for giving that impression.

Maybe I'm the one that needs to slow down and read more carefully :)

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#95
post #87
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a man I did the take away keyboard thing many times in the past. In SOME of the instances the people asked for help were incompetent. Regardless, I think a better approach should be spending time helping them do it themselves instead.

In that particular situation, saying "no I don't know" would be only acceptable behavior, imo. If I am asking for my keyboard back, I should not have to physicality touch or fight you to get it back. Regardless of what you think about me.

We're all just really smart monkeys here, and communication is complicated. "He's always trying to fix things when I just want to talk" is this same interaction just in a home context. Same communication error. There's a gap, you're saying "Do you know, at this moment, how to do this" to which the answer is clearly no. However, men are hearing "Can you solve this problem for me". Giving you back the keyboard means admitting that I failed to fix it.

EDIT: In my head, I feel like you've given up on the idea that I can help you, and you're probably going to go find someone smarter and more competent than me. In this context, a guy who doesn't want to give the keyboard back is afraid of admitting failure.

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#96
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that particular situation, saying "no I don't know" would be only acceptable behavior, imo. If I am asking for my keyboard back, I should not have to physicality touch or fight you to get it back. Regardless of what you think about me.

We're all just really smart monkeys here, and communication is complicated. "He's always trying to fix things when I just want to talk" is this same interaction just in a home context. Same communication error. There's a gap, you're saying "Do you know, at this moment, how to do this" to which the answer is clearly no. However, men are hearing "Can you solve this problem for me". Giving you back the keyboard means ad…

It is absolutely not and I hate that phrase. If I ask whether you know something, I am not trying to "just talk". If you know the answer, I am asking for it.

If you don't know answer, the normal response is no. I don't want you to highjack my computer and completely prevent me from working. That is ridiculous. And it is not solution either - it is literally preventing me to solve it.

> However, men are hearing "Can you solve this problem for me". Giving you back the keyboard means admitting that I failed to fix it.

Then men should fcking learn how to parse human language. Because based on this, betweem them not being able to interpret direct speech and then supposedly being unable to interpret hints, there is not much space. How exactly am I supposed to communicate? And none of this is believable, because above interaction rarely happens against other men.

The whole "he is trying to fix it while women just want to talk" is insulting in situation when he is preventing me to solve thing, when he is not solving anything and I was not chatty at all.

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#97
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men are going to believe they're more competent ... because they've been socialized to believe they're better at it. That's one of the central dogmatic feminist talking points that are just spouted off uncritically, along with other things men are supposedly socialised for, like wage negotiation and preferences for violence, taking up space and technical subject matter. Included is the starting position that women…

The issue at hand is that working women make considerably less money overall than working men. This is due to any number of factors including sexism, social effects, and the necessity of being present at, key, moments of the child rearing process. In the current iteration of our capitalist system it's required for nearly everyone to work, especially in the lower classes. Women have all the same needs that men have, a…

> The issue at hand is that working women make considerably less money overall than working men

When people tout the "30% less" statistic, it often refers to lifelong earnings, not hourly wage, in a study that didn't control for experience, sector, location or education.

It's 18% less when just comparing median wages. When controlled for the same job and qualifications, women earn 98 cents on the dollar (0). Women (as a group) work more part-time and in less profitable sectors like education, NGOs, government and nursing. They are less interested in high-profile and/or high status roles. Again, it feels good to say that women earn less due to discrimination and less so when it's because of their own choices.

You could argue (and I would agree) that some professions should be paid more. I think Covid has shown all of us which professions provide actual value, amongst whom definitely nursing and teaching.

> Women have all the same needs that men have

Women have the same basic needs, but there are differences in preferences, needs unique to women, needs unique to men and gender-specific dreams/wants that aren't needs.

> the necessity of being present at, key, moments of the child rearing process

Sure, but there is also a greater preference towards staying at home and having the man provide. It's simplistic to say "women are being forced" or "men aren't taking up their fair share" - this is a multivariate analysis. Specifically when it comes to a family, two thirds of the divorces are initiated by women. So not only are women staying home more often, they are choosing not to have a man be there at all. That might be for legitimate reasons, or it might not - but a divorce will impact your life balance.

> Feminists are right that there is a problem, this is a demonstrably unfair society

The problem, according to modern feminism, is different outcomes. As I see it, that's not a problem as long as opportunity is equal. Where women earn less on average per annum, they also have almost none of the workplace related deaths, lower suicide rates, homelessness, depression, incidence of burnouts, etc. In the younger generation, women outperform men both in wages and education. To me, it's not so clear if there is a better deal, and if so who has it.

> It doesn't matter what the reason is

I couldn't disagree more. If the claim is the problem lies with men or "the patriarchy", then the onus is on the claimant to prove that position, starting with a solid definition and falsifiable demonstration of patriarchy. That said, if you don't understand the reason for your outcome, you're powerless to change it. In a very concrete sense, you won't know what policy to implement when you topple the status quo and get to power. Among third wave feminists, I'm not hearing about how women architect their own fates and the importance of choices. I do among second wave feminists.

Would you say "it doesn't matter what the reason is" if all your relationships are short-lived, if you keep getting fired or if you keep failing your driving exam?

> this is a demonstrably unfair society

Yes, because of unequal access to money and genetics. Therefore there are class issues first and foremost, some sexism, some racism and the other forms of discrimination. To claim all (or even most) of women's problems are due to sexism, systemic or not, is a reductio ad absurdum.

> I don't want to live in a world where women are men. Where they can't take time to start a family and properly care for their children, because keeping the money flowing is a more immediate need.

Neither do I. But if that's what you want, you can't be opposed to earning less, either. Those are the consequences of your choices. Child rearing is unpaid, unless you're nannying as a service.

> I want to live in a world where you can't just take time off to raise a child, but also to do art, or to travel, or to simply be a human who exists outside their office.

Going out on a limb, I'm going to assume you mean where you can take time off. I'm fully with you there. That comes with a trade-off: you're going to be less "successful" in the conventional, square, monetary sense. You're sacrificing compensation for added fulfillment. That might entail any of: being less resistant to economic downturns, a smaller house, less of a pension, no or fewer kids, less social credit, fewer available/compatible dating partners, more limited career chocies, etc. It might also mean more laughing wrinkles, good moments, average happiness, life expectancy, better relationships, and so on.

That's why I said modern feminism is infantilising: it refuses to acknowledge that life is a struggle, filled with compromise and sacrifice. It's the Disney princess that won't grow up and the college kid that won't stop shouting from the barricades long enough to get on with writing their final dissertation. You have to pick and choose, mostly because no one owes you a damn thing. That is, until we've achieved fully automated luxury space communism à la Roddenberry. We don't live in a post-scarcity world yet by any stretch of the imagination.

> as much as it matters what the solution is

TL;DR: If the cause/reason is unimportant and the solution is key, what do you think is/are some good next step(s)?

[0] https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#98
post #87
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a man I did the take away keyboard thing many times in the past. In SOME of the instances the people asked for help were incompetent. Regardless, I think a better approach should be spending time helping them do it themselves instead.

In that particular situation, saying "no I don't know" would be only acceptable behavior, imo. If I am asking for my keyboard back, I should not have to physicality touch or fight you to get it back. Regardless of what you think about me.

I guess the way I interpreted it wasn't "can you do this?". It's more like "we need this problem solved, and I already gave a try". Again that was younger me, these days I would just kinda query their approach instead.

It was long ago so I don't really remember if the phrasing was "do you know..." or not, but yeah now I agree that just give people direct answers and maybe an open offer like "do you need another set of eyes?" or just leave them alone.

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#99
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all just really smart monkeys here, and communication is complicated. "He's always trying to fix things when I just want to talk" is this same interaction just in a home context. Same communication error. There's a gap, you're saying "Do you know, at this moment, how to do this" to which the answer is clearly no. However, men are hearing "Can you solve this problem for me". Giving you back the keyboard means ad…

It is absolutely not and I hate that phrase. If I ask whether you know something, I am not trying to "just talk". If you know the answer, I am asking for it. If you don't know answer, the normal response is no. I don't want you to highjack my computer and completely prevent me from working. That is ridiculous. And it is not solution either - it is literally preventing me to solve it. > However, men are hearing "Can y…

Agree that phrase paints a stereotypical image of men as problem solvers and women as... talkers?

Re: What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (2010)

#100

Does the affect account for considering different populations? For instance, maybe skilled people tend to compare themselves to other skilled people, while unskilled people compare themselves to the general population?

Good point (I think). This could slightly be a DK effect in that such unskilled people maybe were unaware that there were talented experts they could compare themselves with instead?
Post reply on HN