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Bernie Madoff has died

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Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#251

Post by jameshart »

monocasa wrote: post #220
seneca wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a corporation is a legal person with inalienable rights (as the SCOTUS seems to have decided on) Please stop repeating this nonsense. Corporate Personhood is a legal idea, and does not mean a "corporation is a legal person". Without corporate personhood, you wouldn't be able to sue a company for wrongdoing if the guilty employee quit, or even enforce basic contracts. There are serious problems with corporations…

You can sue the government even though they aren't granted personhood.

‘Granted personhood’ doesn’t mean anything. The relevant legal term is ‘legal personality’. Governments certainly have legal personality. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be able to enter into contracts, file lawsuits, or... really make any claim to exist in any meaningful way.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#252

Post by monocasa »

ac29 wrote: post #244
monocasa wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can sue the government even though they aren't granted personhood.

Its harder to sue the government than you might think, see for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_Unit...

Regardless, the argument there isn't that you can't sue the government at all, but instead that the government is granted immunity for some subset of actions.

Going back to the original point, personhood is clearly not a requirement for being named in a suit. For more examples you can also see in rem cases, where the government sues property itself for civil forfeiture. 11 1/4 Dozen Packages of Articles Labeled in Part Mrs. Moffat's Shoo-Fly Powders for Drunkenness did not need personhood to be named in a lawsuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._11_1/4_Dozen_...

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#253

Post by dec0dedab0de »

nemacol wrote: post #126
mc32 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do with crimes committed by people who have little in earnings (students, unemployed, etc.) or folks who earn “$1” in income but obviously are otherwise wealthy?

Interesting question. I imagine someone has already thought of this from a tax point of view. Maybe some % of their net worth divided by their age (working age?) - say if they have 100 million dollars and are 60. 60-18 = 42. We would fine X% of 2,380,952.38? The idea being an attempt to come up with what their yearly salary could have been based on current value. I am sure there are some excellent flaws with that app…

I hope the government doesn't keep track of everyones net worth, it's bad enough they know everyone's income.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#254

Post by bobthechef »

vidarh wrote: post #165
kiba wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

In Norway, a "life" sentence used to be 21 years, with parole possible after 14. Now there is a stricter option that in theory can end up being actual life, but it requires extension by 5 years at a time after evaluation to determine if the prisoner is still an active threat to society, and it's rarely used. US sentencing has always seemed absolutely crazy to me, to the point where if I through some magic found mysel…

I see, so Breivik can go kill a bunch of children and hang out in "prison" with his XBox and hope to leave on parole? And that's normal for you?

I mean, if you think that isn't an insult to the victims, their families, etc.; if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man. Heck, if killing someone, let alone that many people, isn't so bad, why do we care about any other crime as much as we do? Why all this ridiculous outrage in the public square about all sorts real and imagined sins when life itself is so cheap?

Whatever the flaws in the American justice system (and there are many), Norwegian law and the sensibilities behind it are insane in this respect.

> sentences seem to be more about vengeance than about rehabilitation or making society safer.

Justice has more than one aim. Deterrence and rehabilitation are two of them, so is the preservation of social order. But justice is also retributive. Retribution isn't about hate, whatever modern confusion tells you. That's why we aim to have qualified impartial third-parties (judges) who are supposed to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob, one that often confuses envy with anger at injustice.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#255

Post by monocasa »

jameshart wrote: post #251
monocasa wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can sue the government even though they aren't granted personhood.

‘Granted personhood’ doesn’t mean anything. The relevant legal term is ‘legal personality’. Governments certainly have legal personality. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be able to enter into contracts, file lawsuits, or... really make any claim to exist in any meaningful way.

Is the government itself granted first amendment protections as an association of citizens?

Or is it thought of a fundamentally different sort of entity, that yes can enter some sorts of legal arrangements, but isn't granted all the rights of a citizen?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#256

Post by ForHackernews »

jcbrand wrote: post #204
ForHackernews wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what is a "real" bitcoin? This is the point parent commenter is making. The only difference between Bitcoin OG and Bitcoin Cash or Segwit or any of the others is some kind of vague consensus that everyone agrees to pretend one magic bean is more special and valuable than the other, less-special magic bean with the same name.

The real Bitcoin will be the one that the market prefers. Why is Gold coins more valuable than copper coins? Why is the original Bitcoin more valuable than any of its forks?

You're agreeing with me and the grandparent comment.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#258

Post by blowski »

tartoran wrote: post #148
finikytou wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?

If there was only one person orchestrating and solely benefitting from the subprime crisis it would be easy to put them in jail but there are too many to be put in jail, it’s the equivalent of ‘too big to fail’ but for people, ‘too many to pinpoint blame’ type of thinking. All these people knew it was going nowhere but they kept imflating the bubble because all their peers were doing it also and that despite numerous…

I’d be ok if even some of the guilty people went to prison. We don’t imprison every single drug user.
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