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EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

reuters.com

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Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#111

Post by abduhl »

jean_tta wrote: post #76
seriousquestion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long Covid is mostly self reported vague symptoms, namely fatigue and brain fog. It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet. Isolation? The Covid 15* that many of us packed on? You will feel worse and especially more fatigued, no doubt. Not to mention being constantly immersed in an environment of fear. It's a misattribution to associate side effects of weight…

It is my understanding that many doctors have found "long covid" to 1. be a thing and 2. have specific, unexpected symptoms. Now it is possible that they are all wrong, but could you perhaps give a few arguments why you are right and all those doctors are wrong? [0] unfortunately I only have a French source on this https://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2021/03/22/epuisemen...

These are the same doctors that we now doubt their competence in when it comes to pausing vaccination with J&J and AZ, or are these doctors somehow more credible?

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#112

Post by lxgr »

seriousquestion wrote: post #96
zarkov99 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about all the other people who did not get covid but also stayed home? Shouldn't they all be complaining about fatigue and brain fog? Come on.

They do, and would if asked! Question: Do you feel more fatigued over the past year? Common Answer: Yes. Question: Are you having a harder time concentrating or focusing? Common Answer: Yes.

Again, do you have any data to back this significant claim?

To paraphrase, your thesis is "there is no significant difference in physical and mental health between covid patients and people that have only been suffering the social/economic effects of a quarantine but not contracted covid".

This thesis seems highly verifiable/falsifiable in an empirical way.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#113

Post by makomk »

josefx wrote: post #99
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

This might just be the straw that broke the camels back. As far as I remember the contracts the EU signed turned out to be incredibly one sided, with deliveries getting cut down when someone found out that more dosages could be extracted, no hard delivery requirements leading to constant shortages, etc. . Not getting out of that mess when alternatives exist seems like a bad idea.

There were no hard delivery requirements in any of AstraZeneca's contracts because they didn't have any way to guarantee how much they could deliver - the contract was literally to build the full-scale production lines, and they had no idea of the yield until those lines were actually built because messy biological processes are involved.

The big problems with the EU's AZ purchase is that they bought less of it relative to their population than the UK (so had a commensurately reduced amount of production capacity allocated to them), signed the contract later (meaning less time to fix yield issues), and completely failed to grasp that signing a "best effort" contract for X units of a never-mass-produced vaccine on timescale Y didn't guarantee they'd be delivered on time. Like, the UK apparently only got something like a third the amount of AZ vaccine as expected by now in the initial contract and is more dependent on it than the EU, but you wouldn't even know there was a problem because the publicly-announced schedule was based on actual production numbers - and the UK contract had clauses with teeth to make sure AZ provided the information needed to make that possible. Not only that, the initial plans were ambitious enough that even after the main vaccine supplier underperformed hugely, the UK still ended up ahead of the EU despite most of their vaccines coming from suppliers who did perform as expected.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#114

Post by foepys »

detritus wrote: post #110
foepys wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU could've issued an export ban for Covid vaccines like the US and UK did but did not want to. There would have been 34 million more doses available until the end of March if they had done it. But even in these times, the EU rather supports their allies than revert to nationalism. It could pay dividends in the future.

The UK has a vaccine export ban in place? "Let me be clear: we have not blocked the export of a single covid-19 vaccine or vaccine components." - Boris Johnson https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-03-10/debates/8A8... The UK has certainly sent a few hundred thousand to Australia - they even did it 'on the quiet' so as not to enrage the frothing tabloid classes.

The UK does not formally restrict exports but it didn't export a single dose to the EU despite AZ telling the EU that they would. This lead to the export controls the EU put in place where the EU can forbid exports into countries that don't export themselves. AZ exported 9 million doses into the UK, the UK didn't export a single dose back.

The UK most likely sent them to Australia because Italy blocked AZ exports to Australia.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#115

Post by imchillyb »

shlant wrote: post #79
physicsguy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, we wouldn't even yet know if there were any long term side effects from Pfizer, etc.

although we do not have data yet to show if there are any side effects 1+ years after vaccination, it would be very unlikely that there would be. Serious side effects from vaccines are almost always immediate and seen within a few weeks after administration, not months or years later. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history....

Almost one-third of new drugs approved by the FDA ended up years later with warnings about unexpected, sometimes life-threatening side effects.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-drugs-found-c...

Your supposition about likelihood bears no resemblance to reality. It's almost as if you're misleading people on purpose. I certainly hope that's not the case.

Fully 1/3 of all medications approved by the FDA turn out to have serious, and some life-threatening, side effects YEARS after the medication was approved.

______

You realize that this new 'vaccine' bears no resemblance whatsoever to any prior vaccinations?

This new Covid Vaccine is not a true vaccine. This is a drug that modifies the inner workings of cells.

That is not a vaccine but a 'new drug'.

I repeat: 1/3 of all new drugs have serious, and sometimes life threatening, reactions attributed to them between 1-5 years after the drug's approval and release to the public.

1/3...

That is not an insignificant number, and it is HIGHLY LIKELY that this new drug will have similar issues.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#116

Post by srswtf123 »

shishy wrote: post #85
bmj wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this particular vaccination mechanism (mRNA) has never been licensed for use in humans. Yes, there has been research, but never any sort of trial on the scale of what is happening right now. So, we really don't know what the long term effects of this particular type of vaccine are. I'm not trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines that have been approved. Rather, I'm simply pointing out we don't hav…

edited because its not worth

By saying "I'm not trying to cast doubt" they in fact acknowledge their statement casts doubt. Surely you can see how...?

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#117

Post by bmj »

shlant wrote: post #89
bmj wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this particular vaccination mechanism (mRNA) has never been licensed for use in humans. Yes, there has been research, but never any sort of trial on the scale of what is happening right now. So, we really don't know what the long term effects of this particular type of vaccine are. I'm not trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines that have been approved. Rather, I'm simply pointing out we don't hav…

yes you are correct that we don't really know until we know, but there is good reason to believe that mRNA vaccines are actually safer than traditional methods https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/multimedia-article/were-be... This seems to be at least partially supported by the current risks in regards to currently available non-mRNA vaccines (such as AZ). Also I'm not really sure what saying "we don't know the long te…

Also I'm not really sure what saying "we don't know the long term effect are" accomplishes. It's not really adding much to the conversation.

You are making the claim that there may not be any long term effects to the vaccine, but the information you cite has nothing to do with mRNA-based vaccines. I'm simply suggesting we don't have the data yet to make such claims.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#118

Post by randomsearch »

shlant wrote: post #89
bmj wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this particular vaccination mechanism (mRNA) has never been licensed for use in humans. Yes, there has been research, but never any sort of trial on the scale of what is happening right now. So, we really don't know what the long term effects of this particular type of vaccine are. I'm not trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines that have been approved. Rather, I'm simply pointing out we don't hav…

yes you are correct that we don't really know until we know, but there is good reason to believe that mRNA vaccines are actually safer than traditional methods https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/multimedia-article/were-be... This seems to be at least partially supported by the current risks in regards to currently available non-mRNA vaccines (such as AZ). Also I'm not really sure what saying "we don't know the long te…

They’re saying “we don’t have any data on long term studies of such vaccines”, which is an important point. There is a risk there, and there’s no obvious way to manage it.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#119

Post by chrisseaton »

hef19898 wrote: post #28
dustinmoris wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are in Europe. You can go to your family doctor and ask for a flu shot even if you are young and don't get it recommended by default. Same as you can go to your doctor and ask for lots of other vaccines because you want to travel abroad for instance. I paid for many vaccines in private in Austria in order to travel to certain countries. Don't see why I shouldn't be able to pay for a COVID-19 vaccine the same way…

Ah, sure. But the produceris selling to the doctor who is then administering the shot to you. Quite different from you buying the shot for yourself. Without an ordonance from a doctor you wont get a vaccine.

> Without an ordonance from a doctor you wont get a vaccine.

Like many people are trying to explain to you, you're just talking nonsense. You can get many vaccinations commercially without any kind of prescription in most western countries.

Many countries even have commercial chains of shops that do this - for example example here's a price list of a company in the UK.

https://www.masta-travel-health.com/Booking/Wellness

In the UK even normal supermarkets offer for example vaccination against influenza as a normal over-the-counter product routinely.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#120

Post by detritus »

foepys wrote: post #114
detritus wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has a vaccine export ban in place? "Let me be clear: we have not blocked the export of a single covid-19 vaccine or vaccine components." - Boris Johnson https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-03-10/debates/8A8... The UK has certainly sent a few hundred thousand to Australia - they even did it 'on the quiet' so as not to enrage the frothing tabloid classes.

The UK does not formally restrict exports but it didn't export a single dose to the EU despite AZ telling the EU that they would. This lead to the export controls the EU put in place where the EU can forbid exports into countries that don't export themselves. AZ exported 9 million doses into the UK, the UK didn't export a single dose back. The UK most likely sent them to Australia because Italy blocked AZ exports to…

The AZ doses that the EU did not receive were from plants based in the EU run by European companies fulfilling AZ production. The UK government even invested £55m over a year ago in one such EU-based plant to bring its capacity up after the Dutch government didn't.
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