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EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

reuters.com

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Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#71

Post by makomk »

krzyk wrote: post #68
gnfargbl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't subsidize drugs/vaccines that don't work. Both AZ and J&J have been proven effective. They clearly work. It might not be politically expedient for the EU Commission to emphasize that fact, but it is true nevertheless.

They work, but at least AZ is working hard to NOT deliver vaccines to EU. (and sending those manufactured in EU to the UK). Remember when Italians found 15M vaccines at the factory? I don't know why AZ representatives aren't prosecuted for such behavior of the company. So I think it is a good call to wait for the contract to end. BTW. Work at ~72%, mRNAs are at ~91%. What would you choose if you had both at the table…

The 15 million vaccines which the EU and Italy claimed were some secret shipment to the UK without any basis, and actually turned out to be part of their already publicly announced deliveries to the EU and South America (with the latter being vaccines of non-EU origin which they were just packaging)? Those 15 million vaccines? There's been some astoundingly dodgy political narrative-pushing against AZ.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#72

Post by krzyk »

makomk wrote: post #71
krzyk wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They work, but at least AZ is working hard to NOT deliver vaccines to EU. (and sending those manufactured in EU to the UK). Remember when Italians found 15M vaccines at the factory? I don't know why AZ representatives aren't prosecuted for such behavior of the company. So I think it is a good call to wait for the contract to end. BTW. Work at ~72%, mRNAs are at ~91%. What would you choose if you had both at the table…

The 15 million vaccines which the EU and Italy claimed were some secret shipment to the UK without any basis, and actually turned out to be part of their already publicly announced deliveries to the EU and South America (with the latter being vaccines of non-EU origin which they were just packaging)? Those 15 million vaccines? There's been some astoundingly dodgy political narrative-pushing against AZ.

I didn't write it was a secret shipment to the UK. Just that they have hidden 15M doses, that could be used to protect lives. And considering that they were obligated to provide few M of vaccines to EU countries makes it a good case against AZ.

Is reducing the total amount of vaccines to EU from 500M to 200M in the whole 2021 also a dodgy political narrative against AZ?

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#73

Post by tblt »

krzyk wrote: post #63
thu2111 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But AstraZeneca does work. The idea it doesn't is a fiction peddled by French and German political leaders, it's not based in science.

It works, but has inferior efficacy compared to mRNA vaccines. Same for J&J. If you have a choice, why get AZ? More over second shot is 3 months away, for mRNA it is at most 42 days away. J&J has one shot, that has efficacy lower event than AZ. US is vaccinated mostly using mRNA (because AZ took long to approve and J&J came at that time, but is now blocked). In my country we have the most amount of Pfizer vaccine, AZ…

It's my understanding that efficacy cannot be directly compared like this, as it's a function of what variants were around during the trial, amongst other things. I believe Vice produced a good video on this recently.

Importantly, don't all vaccines currently authorised have 100% protection against death from COVID-19?

Edit: it was Vox, not Vice, and the video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#74

Post by zarkov99 »

seriousquestion wrote: post #58
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

Long Covid is mostly self reported vague symptoms, namely fatigue and brain fog. It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet. Isolation? The Covid 15* that many of us packed on? You will feel worse and especially more fatigued, no doubt. Not to mention being constantly immersed in an environment of fear. It's a misattribution to associate side effects of weight…

How about all the other people who did not get covid but also stayed home? Shouldn't they all be complaining about fatigue and brain fog? Come on.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#75

Post by drzaiusapelord »

seriousquestion wrote: post #58
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

Long Covid is mostly self reported vague symptoms, namely fatigue and brain fog. It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet. Isolation? The Covid 15* that many of us packed on? You will feel worse and especially more fatigued, no doubt. Not to mention being constantly immersed in an environment of fear. It's a misattribution to associate side effects of weight…

I have lc. It is borderline crippling. I can barely climb the stairs and terms like "brain fog" are comically inaccurate. Its like being drugged or having something like dementia. I've only somehow managed to barely keep my job by hiding this from my employer. I'm also usually unable to stay away the entire daya and have hard crashes in the afternoon where I must lie down and crash into a weird deep sleep or I might faint standing up. Before this I was active, fit, and generally a high energy person. This also isn't "stress." I won't tell you my life story but I have more mileage on me than most and I've handled serious stress without my entire body falling apart on me.

Secondly, the only thing that has helped was my first dose of pfizer, which made me very sick for a week but since then helped with my symptoms significantly. Its very, very clearly linked to the actual virus and how our immune system reacts to it and I'm guessing things like the vaccine may help our immune system recalibrate itself or help our bodies fight off resident infections we just can't beat.

Thirdly, post-viral effects are well studied. We see them in all sorts of infections like Lyme, SARS, or EBV. This isn't necessarily new, its just different per virus family. Doctors usually can't help because there's no real treatment, and write people up like me as CFS/ME and hope it goes away (which so far thankfully there are a lot of reports of lc going away after a 2nd dose of the vaccine). Lesser so, people without lc still have chronic issues with their lungs, heart, sense of smell, tinitus, etc. Its really all a matter of degree. This isn't the common cold where you just beat it and go back to normal. For many people normal doesnt come back for a long time and how bad it is in the meantime is the big question.

Lastly, I think calling people hysterical from your comfy armchair where you're enjoying good health is tasteless, rude, and ignorant. I hope you never get lc or have to help a loved one with it. I hope you also stay out of the medical field if you have such an ungenerous and anti-compassionate attitude towards sick people.

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#76

Post by jean_tta »

seriousquestion wrote: post #58
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

Long Covid is mostly self reported vague symptoms, namely fatigue and brain fog. It's what happens when you stay at home too much and don't get enough exercise and have a poor diet. Isolation? The Covid 15* that many of us packed on? You will feel worse and especially more fatigued, no doubt. Not to mention being constantly immersed in an environment of fear. It's a misattribution to associate side effects of weight…

It is my understanding that many doctors have found "long covid" to 1. be a thing and 2. have specific, unexpected symptoms. Now it is possible that they are all wrong, but could you perhaps give a few arguments why you are right and all those doctors are wrong?

[0] unfortunately I only have a French source on this https://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2021/03/22/epuisemen...

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#77

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

parhamn wrote: post #26

Does anyone know how reusable the mRNA infrastructure is in the future for other mRNA based solutions or is this stuff more one-off for COVID?

In my understanding, the mRNA platform can be used for any application where you want to temporarily express a protein in the body. In the case of these COVID vaccines, it's being used to express the coronavirus spike protein, but Moderna is already using this technology for HIV, flu and others[0]. I believe the applications beyond vaccines are many, too.

[0] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/moderna-offers-update-on-v...

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#78

Post by theptip »

parhamn wrote: post #26

Does anyone know how reusable the mRNA infrastructure is in the future for other mRNA based solutions or is this stuff more one-off for COVID?

On both ends of the spectrum of mortality rates:

Common cold: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23159882/.

Malaria: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/03/12/yale-lab-develops-...

Re: EU Commission to end AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine contracts at expiry

#79

Post by shlant »

physicsguy wrote: post #62
jleyank wrote: post #36

Probably every drug has risks, many higher than the 1:1,000,000 reported for AZ/J&J. It's always a balance between the risk untreated vs. treated - many cancer drugs will kill you, but slower than they kill the cancer. Contraceptives have various issues, but their "social good" is deemed worthwhile. I've read that they are doing gene analysis to try and determine why these cases appear - is it gender, age, cross-reac…

On top of that, we wouldn't even yet know if there were any long term side effects from Pfizer, etc.

although we do not have data yet to show if there are any side effects 1+ years after vaccination, it would be very unlikely that there would be. Serious side effects from vaccines are almost always immediate and seen within a few weeks after administration, not months or years later.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history....

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