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Bernie Madoff has died

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Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#131

Post by telesilla »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #113
nemacol wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the % of income idea.

I like it simply because screwing the rich and middle as hard as the poors on trivial issues is gonna make it real clear real quick how excessive penalties for common civil offenses are and pretty soon thereafter the laws will change. HN has this fantasy of $10k speeding tickets. In reality it's gonna look like 100mph speed limits, $100 fines for you and $10 fines for your nanny.

Don't excessive speeding tickets lead to a loss of license? This is the perfect response. Perhaps a more sophisticated society will one day know our fears and punish us accordingly (cue film script).

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#132

Post by bidirectional »

finikytou wrote: post #56
obmelvin wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, please. Madoff ruined plenty of "normal" people's life savings. Say what you will about other bankers, but please don't try to elevate someone who destroyed the life savings of others. EDIT: Yes, non-profits and pension funds as well. That's not taking from the rich. Madoff was not Robin Hood.

no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life... if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones. thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today. While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just l…

75% - opportunity cost - inflation.

If you plan your life around having $1 million in savings because that's what your statements from Madoff say, recovering 75% of the fraction you put in is pretty bad.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#133

Post by saalweachter »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #125
saalweachter wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I'm comfortable calling Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme because all profits extracted by early investors come from later investors. That's, like, a very specific and applicable definition.

That's how the stock market works as well.

There is certainly zero-sum speculation within the stock market, dwarfing that in Bitcoin, sure, but the S&P 500 also pays out half a trillion dollars in dividends a year, and buys back a similar amount of stock from the profits of the actual businesses being invested in through the stock market.

A trillion dollars a year funneling from business profits to investors is the difference between the S&P 500 and Bitcoin.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#134

Post by bidirectional »

finikytou wrote: post #83
obmelvin wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?

I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?

How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#135

Post by jpdb »

rainbowzootsuit wrote: post #91
lotsofpulp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could be some value attributed to being able to use gold as a store of value and currency in the event of a dissolution of modern society such that the internet or widespread electricity is no longer around.

In that situation, the inability to eat it or shoot something with it is probably going to make gold/silver pretty close to worthless as well until society re-exists. Even if the US government ceases to exist, the features of non reproducibility built into cash dollars (watermarks, intaglio printing) would still exist although they won't be as ultimately durable into the future as an element. At least you can also us…

Paper money has a lower bound of material value equal to $(toilet paper - utility value for the comfort of toilet paper over a dollar bill) per square inch.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#136

Post by Bukhmanizer »

cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

As I posted a couple days ago, I have my doubts about whether Madoff actually was that worried about prison. Seems to me like he lived like a literal king until he was 70, then went to jail. Maybe 70 year old Madoff didn’t want to go to jail, but 40 year old Madoff may have been more than happy to make that deal. Seems to me that someone who was trying to avoid jail time would have spend more effort trying to ameliorate the situation rather than cover anything up.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#137

Post by saalweachter »

kolinko wrote: post #114
saalweachter wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I'm comfortable calling Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme because all profits extracted by early investors come from later investors. That's, like, a very specific and applicable definition.

So you just redefined a the name „Ponzi” to mean something else than the commonly accepted definition.

Here, let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=ponzi+scheme+definition

Pon·zi scheme

/ˈpänzē ˌskēm/

noun

a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#138

Post by ecocentrik »

kiba wrote: post #98
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

oversimplify much?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#139

Post by pydry »

cogman10 wrote: post #127
mpalmer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time is the only asset we all mostly have in common. If your laws and the enforcement thereof are just (big if), then why shouldn't the punishment be exacted in a way that generally affects everyone equally? Beyond that, prison is inhumane as a rough function of where you are. Maybe you're thinking of a particular prison system. How does it fix anything? It should primarily be a deterrent, and secondarily a way to pr…

I have a sneaking suspicion that if more billionares spent time in prison, we'd see massive reform on the prison system towards the humane.

Or a class system for prisons.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#140

Post by elil17 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #113
nemacol wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the % of income idea.

I like it simply because screwing the rich and middle as hard as the poors on trivial issues is gonna make it real clear real quick how excessive penalties for common civil offenses are and pretty soon thereafter the laws will change. HN has this fantasy of $10k speeding tickets. In reality it's gonna look like 100mph speed limits, $100 fines for you and $10 fines for your nanny.

Other countries have $10k speeding tickets for the rich who ignore traffic rules. It’s not such a fantasy, it’s a real world way to reduce emissions and automobile deaths.
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