Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bernie Madoff has died

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 406 posts

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#71

Post by tim333 »

hudon wrote: post #50
xutopia wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Bitcoin different than gold though? Is gold also a Ponzi scheme?

Gold is found in nature. We can’t manufacture it or change its atomic number. Bitcoin is human code run on human machines. If society or the powers that be see fit to generate infinite Bitcoin, they can (ie forks are political power plays and we can’t control how the powerful will coopt Bitcoin in the future).

>If society or the powers that be see fit to generate infinite Bitcoin

But not real ones. It's like saying you can make infinite Mona Lisas with a colour photocopier.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#72

Post by shawnz »

user-the-name wrote: post #57
mumblemumble wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is not, in any way, a Ponzi scheme. It may be the subject of a bubble, it may be subject to market manipulation, it may still play a part in any number of scams or frauds beyond the ones that have already been identified, some of which themselves may be Ponzi schemes. But, even if, for the sake of argment, all of those and more were true, Bitcoin itself would still not be a Ponzi scheme. It is and would still…

Bitcoin may or may not intentionally be a Ponzi scheme. But that doesn't matter, because functionally, there is no difference between an intentional Ponzi scheme and Bitcoin. Bitcoin trading is a negative-sum game. All winning that anyone gets comes out of the pockets of newer investors. There is no net inflow of value or money that could cover the gains people make trading, other than the money being put in by other…

That's still not a Ponzi scheme unless you are also lying to investors by telling them that the returns are coming from some kind of business venture or something. Investors willingly speculating on commodities because they think they will rise isn't a Ponzi scheme.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#73

Post by dec0dedab0de »

nemacol wrote: post #59
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…

I do, it would also be more fair than fines because it wouldn't be worse on the poor. I also think we should have corporal punishment, not because I believe in it per se, but because I think it is more humane than prison and would satisfy societies need for punishing the guilty.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#74

Post by mumblemumble »

user-the-name wrote: post #57
mumblemumble wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is not, in any way, a Ponzi scheme. It may be the subject of a bubble, it may be subject to market manipulation, it may still play a part in any number of scams or frauds beyond the ones that have already been identified, some of which themselves may be Ponzi schemes. But, even if, for the sake of argment, all of those and more were true, Bitcoin itself would still not be a Ponzi scheme. It is and would still…

Bitcoin may or may not intentionally be a Ponzi scheme. But that doesn't matter, because functionally, there is no difference between an intentional Ponzi scheme and Bitcoin. Bitcoin trading is a negative-sum game. All winning that anyone gets comes out of the pockets of newer investors. There is no net inflow of value or money that could cover the gains people make trading, other than the money being put in by other…

Gold works the same way: the mining of new gold creates a downward pressure on the value of existing gold. Dilution is not the same thing as fraud.

USD also has some similar effects at play. But inflation is also not fraud.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#76

Post by anoonmoose »

Tomte wrote: post #25
beej71 wrote: post #21

That's too bad. I wanted him to live out his term. Given the amount of damage he caused, he has hardly paid his debt to society.

You want a 71 year old man to live out his 150 year prison sentence?

Sure, why else give him a 150 year prison sentence? I am only 49% joking.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#77

Post by macjohnmcc »

I learned a few years ago that I actually worked closely with one of the two programmers who worked with Madoff and was part of the "Madoff Five" the year before he started with Madoff. I feel the judge went too easy on the programmers involved as there is no way they did not understand what they were helping to orchestrate. I also worked closely with another programmer a couple of years later who wound up being a drug kingpin. I hope that it ended with those two!

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#78

Post by ddevault »

Icathian wrote: post #40
assface wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold has material use. You can make things with it.

Okay, but the value of gold has basically zero relationship to it's industrial or commercial uses, so that isn't really relevant here.

Gold is also the most reasonable element to use as a store of value. It isn't very reactive or radioactive, so it's stable for long periods of time, it's a solid at room temperature, it's not hazardous to human health, it's easily manipulated and formed, and it's not super abundant but also not super rare. Silver is the only other element that comes close, and it tarnishes.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#79

Post by ForHackernews »

tim333 wrote: post #61
soneca wrote: post #33

Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

So your theory is that unlike Ponzi members, bitcoin buyers aren't paying in $x hoping to take $x+500% out in the future? Intriguing.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#80

Post by michaelt »

xutopia wrote: post #35
soneca wrote: post #33

Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.

Why is Bitcoin different than gold though? Is gold also a Ponzi scheme?

Arguably nothing.

Except with gold, there's a history of greater or lesser fools buying it from you that goes back thousands of years; there are a great many non-scam businesses trading in it, and they ain't come out with many new precious metals in my lifetime.

Cryptocurrencies have a much shorter history, an exceptionally large number of scams, and nigh-limitless supply of new types of coin and token.

Post reply on HN