Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.
or the $USD.
Bernie Madoff has died
51–60 of 406 posts
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bitcoin is not, in any way, a Ponzi scheme. It may be the subject of a bubble, it may be subject to market manipulation, it may still play a part in any number of scams or frauds beyond the ones that have already been identified, some of which themselves may be Ponzi schemes. But, even if, for the sake of argment, all of those and more were true, Bitcoin itself would still not be a Ponzi scheme. It is and would still…
Those who got in early made almost infinitely more than those who got in later (or who lost) - classic Ponzi scheme.
That is something that applies to all sorts of situations, and is in no way a litmus test for whether or not something is a Ponzi scheme.
For it to be a Ponzi scheme, you first have to have some sort of centralized control of the ledger so that you can lie to people about the volume of assets they have in your care. And already we have made a complete departure from what Bitcoin is and how it works.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#53Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.
Pay-as-you-go retirement systems depend on having enough young people entering the workforce. Preferrably qualified ones that can be taxed.
Now that developed countries have mostly sunk below 2 kids per woman and most developing countries do not have school systems good enough to provide enough qualified workers to immigrate, we are feeling the slow press of unsustainability of the system.
Unless we can offload a lot of that press on robots, people will have to work until their late 70s. The original Bismarck pension scheme calculated with only 2 years of survival in pension on average. We have expanded it to almost 20, it will have to be reduced again.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#54I was wondering how he got into this, did he set out to run a ponzi scheme from the get go? Interesting to see that it was not like that. He was running an honest fund that ran into some trouble during a down turn. He convinced himself that he could just fudge things a little, just until the downturn passed and then he'd go straight again. Of course he never went straight again. Life lessons for everyone there.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gold has material use. You can make things with it.
Okay, but the value of gold has basically zero relationship to it's industrial or commercial uses, so that isn't really relevant here.
There could be some value attributed to being able to use gold as a store of value and currency in the event of a dissolution of modern society such that the internet or widespread electricity is no longer around.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
that is not the number one learning and I think you are wrong. The real powerful and rich do not fear jail. They fear people like madoff that targets them. That is why Madoff ended his life in jail while banks/funds CEO in the 2008 are now richer than ever stealing money from the poors and taking 0 accountability for the subprime crisis that destroyed a whole decade. In my book he was better than any of those bankers…
Oh, please. Madoff ruined plenty of "normal" people's life savings. Say what you will about other bankers, but please don't try to elevate someone who destroyed the life savings of others. EDIT: Yes, non-profits and pension funds as well. That's not taking from the rich. Madoff was not Robin Hood.
no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life...
if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones.
thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today.
While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just look at the papers from 2008 if you don't believe it.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#57Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.
Bitcoin is not, in any way, a Ponzi scheme. It may be the subject of a bubble, it may be subject to market manipulation, it may still play a part in any number of scams or frauds beyond the ones that have already been identified, some of which themselves may be Ponzi schemes. But, even if, for the sake of argment, all of those and more were true, Bitcoin itself would still not be a Ponzi scheme. It is and would still…
Bitcoin may or may not intentionally be a Ponzi scheme.
But that doesn't matter, because functionally, there is no difference between an intentional Ponzi scheme and Bitcoin.
Bitcoin trading is a negative-sum game. All winning that anyone gets comes out of the pockets of newer investors. There is no net inflow of value or money that could cover the gains people make trading, other than the money being put in by other people. There is a net outflow of money, in the form of trading and mining fees, but there is no inflow.
So functionally, with Bitcoin, old entrants are paid off with the money invested by newer entrants. This is exactly how a Ponzi scheme works.
Again, it may not be intentional, but it works the same nonetheless.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#58Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.
The stock market in general. The last few years have really swoon us that the stock market is 100% "funny money" that goes up and down purely based on opinion.
> goes up and down purely based on opinion.
Not opinion as much as fear and greed.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#59Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.
Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses?
Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable.
There are issues - child care if a parent has to spend time. This system would need to accommodate peoples schedules, shouldn't have to miss work for a parking ticket, etc. Much harder to administer than mailing fines.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those who got in early made almost infinitely more than those who got in later (or who lost) - classic Ponzi scheme.
That is something that applies to all sorts of situations, and is in no way a litmus test for whether or not something is a Ponzi scheme. For it to be a Ponzi scheme, you first have to have some sort of centralized control of the ledger so that you can lie to people about the volume of assets they have in your care. And already we have made a complete departure from what Bitcoin is and how it works.
But there is a lie. The lie is the supposed value in USD of the bitcoins you hold.