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WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

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41–50 of 244 posts

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#41

In Jan, there was a big outcry, i thought all would move to signal. I have about 25% of the conversations in signal, but especially for groups, whatsapp is so sticky, that they seem to have broadly failed in signal, and are back to whatsapp. I continue to have individual conversations on signal with most friends, but the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought.

They're back on WhatsApp because you and others still have an account there.

The migration to Signal has two parts: start using Signal, and delete your Facebook accounts.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#42

In Jan, there was a big outcry, i thought all would move to signal. I have about 25% of the conversations in signal, but especially for groups, whatsapp is so sticky, that they seem to have broadly failed in signal, and are back to whatsapp. I continue to have individual conversations on signal with most friends, but the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought.

Throwing in my anecdotal experience. I noticed something very similar. About 25% of one-on-one conversations are now in Signal. Another 25% are in iMessage, which is a very easy sell for iOS users. I've had a terrible time with group chats. One large chat is occurring in iMessage (very poor experience). Another large chat is occurring in Discord, which has been fantastic, but it changes the dynamic and caused a few f…

Discord is not end to end encrypted, and thus should be actively avoided.

It is reasonable to assume that every single chat and every single DM is logged in plaintext by Discord for all time.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#43
post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

Any time there's a project that's almost open-source, almost open standards, that's how it ends up going. If you'd gone for Matrix you wouldn't have that problem, because even if their developers decide to embed some bitcoin nonsense into the official client, the protocol and ecosystem is much bigger than that.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#44
post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

> they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins Honestly, this is a bad argument. You can use Signal and never send a gif or stickers. You don't have to do anything with ~~stickers~~crypto when using Signal. It is an opt-in feature that is probably going to not be used my 90% of people. This is just a bad argument surrounding the whole ordeal. Now the arguments about: regulations, Moxie's involvement (stated he has no…

It maybe a bad argument but it's a practical view. Governments around the world (see: India, China) have strict laws around crypto. By law of association, any service that remotely mentions this is severely scrutinized. I can hardly blame my friends if they want no part of this.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#45

Why is it so hard for someone to make a simple WhatsApp competitor with the same business model as the pre-facebook WhatsApp? It was build by just a few people 10 freakin years ago. I wish people valued their privacy higher than $1 a year but I guess many don't.

All centralized communications and social networking platforms will fall to pressure to sell at this point, if that wasn't their intention (this seems to be the exit strategy of most startups these days). The alternatives exist, but they don't have marketing budgets. They're things like jabber, matrix, Jami, and the many ActivityPub implementations out there.

We have the alternatives already. We can use them now. To me this defeatism is like jumping out of a plane with a parachute and saying "I guess there's nothing to be done now." It starts with you making the decision to use something else. It is harder because of the lock in. But there's only one way to do it.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#46
That big privacy policy update everyone was complaining about was--again--only about providing hosted e2e clients in the cloud for Facebook Business customers, and had nothing to do with end user to end user chats: the goal was to solve the experience problem of a company wanting to provide a chatbot and realizing "omg, I have to host all of the chat client parts myself and build some way for random people in my organization to get access to it?!". The updates were all clearly narrowly targeted towards that--including to the security document, which merely moved the statement that data was encrypted (as opposed to removing it, which some people claimed)--and Facebook representatives immediately provided explicit clarification of all of this, but no one cared and everyone caused this massive denigration of WhatsApp... one that is apparently continuing, as this doesn't seem to be anything new they changed?

Here is a comment with some defense of all of this, for those who were only reading the big headlines:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25875802

And for what: so that the only mass-market end-to-end encrypted messaging tool could be discredited? And we could prove to large companies "we don't care if you are end-to-end encrypted: in fact, we will punish you harder if you are end-to-end encrypted than if you are just a normal service!"?!? Where is all the continued outrage over Snapchat, the service we actually should be trying to replace with an e2e encrypted alternative (but for which Signal is an insufficient replacement as a big reason people like Snapchat is that you don't have to give your real phone number to the random people you talk to online)? While some people remind us that Telegram sucks, where are the weekly threads and news articles about how horrible Telegram is? Why are groups like Signal targeting advertising at WhatsApp instead of at Telegram? Hell: why is everyone so upset over WhatsApp, but no one ever mentions Facebook Messenger in any of these articles or rants?

And let us not forget the cherry on top of this whole thing: that right after everyone decided to do this massive mobilization to cause the great exodus from WhatsApp--only some of those people of course ending up on Signal, with some reasonable number likely moving to Snapchat or Telegram or even Facebook Messenger--Signal decided they had a great moment to launch MobileCoin... a cryptocurrency whose claim to fame is being built on broken-by-design DRM technology (Intel SGX / ARM TrustZone) and which--whether you think cryptocurrency is a good idea (which I do) or not--has managed to undermine confidence not only in the only big open source end-to-end encrypted messenger (by both clouding its motives and tying it to cryptocurrencies, which many end users consider to be a scam) but which has now soured everyone's opinion (maybe correctly) of the privacy community (due to the recent push to use it). This is all just so infuriating as someone who wants people to universally have end-to-end encryption :/.

(FWIW, if there is something new here--something that Facebook is now suddenly doing that is actually bad, unlike before--I'm very curious, but am going to note that all of the above is now the reason why I'm even past the point of caring enough than to skim a few paragraphs to verify "this is part of the same FUD from a couple months ago": you can only cry wolf so many times before even the super technical people like me are no long going to care. But this just seems to now be "great, government is now going to step in and also punish WhatsApp for having the gall to have bothered to build an end-to-end encrypted messaging app and then be carefully transparent about the process by which they add a new feature that just shouldn't be considered a big problem". When this same politician decides to sanction Snapchat or Telegram for the way they handle privacy--or goes after Facebook Messenger or Instagram--I'll be excited, but this is going to harm the efforts for end-to-end encryption, not help them!)

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#47
post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

> they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins Honestly, this is a bad argument. You can use Signal and never send a gif or stickers. You don't have to do anything with ~~stickers~~crypto when using Signal. It is an opt-in feature that is probably going to not be used my 90% of people. This is just a bad argument surrounding the whole ordeal. Now the arguments about: regulations, Moxie's involvement (stated he has no…

[deleted]

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins Honestly, this is a bad argument. You can use Signal and never send a gif or stickers. You don't have to do anything with ~~stickers~~crypto when using Signal. It is an opt-in feature that is probably going to not be used my 90% of people. This is just a bad argument surrounding the whole ordeal. Now the arguments about: regulations, Moxie's involvement (stated he has no…

It maybe a bad argument but it's a practical view. Governments around the world (see: India, China) have strict laws around crypto. By law of association, any service that remotely mentions this is severely scrutinized. I can hardly blame my friends if they want no part of this.

They are whitelisting the feature. So this is pretty easy to deal with. Government bans? Take off the whitelist. No more issues. Major services like Google Play will have to deal with this too. Most apps don't work the same way in every single country, they adopt to those countries' policies or get banned.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think non-nerds really think about privacy online all that much. This privacy catastrophe is only felt in places like HN.

I talk to my friends, parents, and family about it a lot. They don't understand it, but they do care. Problem is that they don't understand how to fight back. They do not want to give up on Facebook. They also are afraid to switch to a service like Signal because "no one is there." So I think they care, but there's a big sense of helplessness. Honestly that's why I like projects like Signal. There's no way I can get…

A distinction without a difference. It matters little how much they say they care if the few taps to download a new app and some nonsense "but what if my friends list isn't totally full, the horror!" fear is what's stopping them, especially when they clearly know someone who can and is willing to help them (ie. you).

I wonder how quickly they would switch if WhatsApp started requiring a monthly fee to use it. I get the feeling that big sense of helplessness would suddenly vanish.

If they claim to care so much about online data privacy, let them prove it. They've already proven they care a lot about price.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#50
post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

And the audio calls. It was bad, it’s still bad while crypto is being added. I knew when I started aggressively trying to move friend’s family to Signal that this benevolent dictator thing will backfire someday. I didn’t expect it to happen so soon.

Now I still don’t want to use WhatsApp but I don’t know which other messaging app will replace it. I think none.

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