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WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

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Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#31

Post by hjek »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #7
foolinaround wrote: post #2

In Jan, there was a big outcry, i thought all would move to signal. I have about 25% of the conversations in signal, but especially for groups, whatsapp is so sticky, that they seem to have broadly failed in signal, and are back to whatsapp. I continue to have individual conversations on signal with most friends, but the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought.

And Signal saw that movement, and decided instead of focusing all their development effort in making sure the user experience for all these new users was top notch and developing in the open, instead to push a cryptocoin that no one has heard of before but one which their principals likely have a stash of. Given Signal's behavior, I am not going to waste any friendship capital trying to convince my friends to switch…

WhatsApp have been focusing on payments lately[0] so it only makes sense for Signal to put efforts into that, too.

[0]: https://blog.whatsapp.com/send-payments-in-india-with-whatsa...

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#32

Post by dalbasal »

jonplackett wrote: post #12

Why is it so hard for someone to make a simple WhatsApp competitor with the same business model as the pre-facebook WhatsApp? It was build by just a few people 10 freakin years ago. I wish people valued their privacy higher than $1 a year but I guess many don't.

>> a simple WhatsApp competitor with the same business model as the pre-facebook WhatsApp.

Because the business was "sell to fb," effectively. Whoever succeeds in putting together a wide network of people will face similar incentives. I suppose someone could do it Craig Newmark style, but for that a Craig Newmark needs to be CEO of a major app company. Long odds.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#33

Post by paxys »

mwambua wrote: post #25
paxys wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp never had a real business model. Its peak revenue, disclosed by Facebook at the time of acquisition, was ~$1.5 million/year, and this was when they had 500 million active users. It was always running on VC cash.

> Its peak revenue, disclosed by Facebook at the time of acquisition, was ~$1.5 million/year Not sure where you got that number, but in 2013 (before aquisition) they reported ~$10 million in revenue. ( https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1326801/000132680114... ) They brought in $15 million in the first half of 2014. ( https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1326801/000132680114... ) They only had 55 employees at…

This was my source - https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/04091... (which points to that same document but somehow draws a different conclusion).

Also that document shows a net loss of $230 million in that same period, so not exactly on a strong path to profitability.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#34

Post by godelski »

nopato wrote: post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

> they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins

Honestly, this is a bad argument. You can use Signal and never send a gif or stickers. You don't have to do anything with ~~stickers~~crypto when using Signal. It is an opt-in feature that is probably going to not be used my 90% of people. This is just a bad argument surrounding the whole ordeal.

Now the arguments about: regulations, Moxie's involvement (stated he has no coins but there's other potential issues), and how the final system will actually look like (e.g. should it be a second app), those are valid arguments that we should be discussing. But the above one just isn't great and I'm tired of seeing it.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#35

Post by paxys »

nopato wrote: post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

They could also use Signal and not have anything to do with bitcoins..

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#36

Post by godelski »

goldenchrome wrote: post #16
purplecats wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet. Yup, this is it. The point they've been waiting for us to cross. It was inevitable imo to not give up and surrender to it. It feels like we as a society are slowing transcending from the 4th to the 5th stage of grief.

I don’t think non-nerds really think about privacy online all that much. This privacy catastrophe is only felt in places like HN.

I talk to my friends, parents, and family about it a lot. They don't understand it, but they do care. Problem is that they don't understand how to fight back. They do not want to give up on Facebook. They also are afraid to switch to a service like Signal because "no one is there." So I think they care, but there's a big sense of helplessness. Honestly that's why I like projects like Signal. There's no way I can get people to use PGP through emails, it is too much work. But anyone can use something like Signal.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#37

Post by paxys »

dalbasal wrote: post #32
jonplackett wrote: post #12

Why is it so hard for someone to make a simple WhatsApp competitor with the same business model as the pre-facebook WhatsApp? It was build by just a few people 10 freakin years ago. I wish people valued their privacy higher than $1 a year but I guess many don't.

>> a simple WhatsApp competitor with the same business model as the pre-facebook WhatsApp. Because the business was "sell to fb," effectively. Whoever succeeds in putting together a wide network of people will face similar incentives. I suppose someone could do it Craig Newmark style, but for that a Craig Newmark needs to be CEO of a major app company. Long odds.

Not a great example even otherwise considering what a cesspool Craigslist eventually became.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#38

Post by godelski »

dalbasal wrote: post #30
foolinaround wrote: post #2

In Jan, there was a big outcry, i thought all would move to signal. I have about 25% of the conversations in signal, but especially for groups, whatsapp is so sticky, that they seem to have broadly failed in signal, and are back to whatsapp. I continue to have individual conversations on signal with most friends, but the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought.

>> the idea of being able to leave whatsapp seems to be much tougher than I thought. Network lock-in is real. I think a lot of people who disconnect from fb also disregard the difficulty. Even if you don't like the barman, your local is wherever your buddies hang out.

It is difficult but not impossible. Everyone switched from Myspace to Facebook. Thing was the Facebook offered something different. But it did start small. The way you defeat network lock-in is by fighting against it hard. It definitely is not easy. I lost friends when I deleted my Facebook. But truth is, they weren't people I frequently talked to anyways so it is probably better to call them acquaintances. The thing is that I've contacted plenty of those people years after nothing and they are all happy to grab a beer. But we pretend that this isn't the case. We say "Yeah, I'd do that, but they wouldn't." Or something similar.

Though I'll admit, getting people to switch to Signal was a lot of work. People like Elon and Joe Rogan helped onboard a lot of the people that were holding out. One group chat has a member that is only there because everyone else bought in and he complains, but uses it (big WA user).

I don't think people calling for disconnecting are unaware of the difficulties. Ripping off a bandaid hurts, but the thought of ripping it off often is more painful than the actual experience.

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#39

Post by [deleted] »

nopato wrote: post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

[deleted]

Re: WhatsApp's new privacy policy is so bad it might be illegal

#40

Post by sneak »

nopato wrote: post #13

To be honest I feel a bit disenfranchised. I’ve used all my energy to convert all my friends to signal when the WhatsApp privacy policy fiasco happened and now they’re saying it was a waste of time since they don’t want anything to do with bitcoins.. I can’t blame them as I also don’t want this on my messaging app. I feel like I will just give up and use WhatsApp and assume that I only had privacy pre-internet.

Good thing then that there won't be any bitcoins in Signal.
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