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The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

vivaldi.com

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Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#121

Post by celsoazevedo »

Aachen wrote: post #101
type0 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correctemento, for non technical users Chrome is the window to the internet (it used to be Internet Explorer).

Why'd they go out and download another browser if they don't understand the concept of a browser? Only Android comes with the Google browser as default browser as far as I know. I think whatever the setupper of the computer dictates whatever Internet is, and secondarily the OS vendor if the new user doesn't have a tech friend. I don't think Chrome is somehow == Internet for these people specifically. (Personally I ca…

Most Chrome users didn't actually install it. That's the case on desktops/laptops, but not on mobile, which is the segment that bought a lot of new people to the internet in the past few years.

Android is the most popular mobile OS (+70% of market share[0]) and most Android phones sold outside China come Google Apps/Chrome pre-installed. That's a lot of Chrome installations.

And now Chromebooks are selling like hot cakes (30M in 2020[1], a huge increase mostly because of the pandemic) and Chrome is the default browser there too.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... [1] https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/02/01/chromebooks-continu...

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#122

Post by alerighi »

joshuamorton wrote: post #105
sumtechguy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I am reading this right (and you seem to have read it the same way) it ends up creating a browser fingerprint. Visit 1 FLoC and they have no real idea who you really are. But if you visit several they could easily tell. Which is similar to how they use your installed list of fonts to identify you. But more formalized?

No, this isn't correct. You only ever belong to a single FloC. So let's for a second assume the non-adversarial use case. The advertiser isn't using any additional tools to track you. Then the only thing the advertiser has is your FloC. This doesn't identify you individually, but it might correlate with various interests. If your FloC changes, which it will periodically, the advertiser doesn't have any history, so th…

It's not the same as third party cookies! Third party cookies works only if:

a) every site you visit loads some Google/Facebook/whatever JavaScript to track you. That are not all sites.

b) you didn't disable these scripts with extensions like UBlock (that to me is essentials these days) or use a browser that value your privacy (like Firefox) that blocks them by default.

This system not only is deeply integrated in the browser and thus impossible to block with extensions (without modifying the source code of the browser, that in case of a proprietary browser like Google Chrome you can't), but also track all your browsing history, meaning that they catch even sites that doesn't include Google trackers inside.

Another bad thing about this system is that is integrated inside the browser, meaning that for a closed source browser like Chrome only Google knows how it works and what exactly it does. While classical tracker scripts that uses third party cookies are implemented in JavaScript, minified and obfuscated, but still you can in theory read the source code and understand what they do.

This is far worse for privacy than how things are now!

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#123

Post by luke2m »

devenblake wrote: post #112
Aachen wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why'd they go out and download another browser if they don't understand the concept of a browser? Only Android comes with the Google browser as default browser as far as I know. I think whatever the setupper of the computer dictates whatever Internet is, and secondarily the OS vendor if the new user doesn't have a tech friend. I don't think Chrome is somehow == Internet for these people specifically. (Personally I ca…

Old folks don't download Chrome, their sucker children do. Those who are too frail to lift the koolaid cup to their mouths shall be aided by their brethren. But also Chrome isn't super hard to install anyway and the dark patterns "help" with the process. Go on Google.com with MS Edge and it'll tell you Chrome will give you a faster, more betterer Internet. It must be pretty convincing to hear that from the de facto a…

Yeah. If I open Google docs with Gnome Epiphany, I get a message that says IE is no longer supported. IE? And until recently, Vivaldi had all sorts of issues on google websites, even though it’s chromium.

https://vivaldi.com/blog/user-agent-changes/

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#124

Post by loa_in_ »

gsich wrote: post #55
domano wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man GDPR is such a pain to implement and UX-wise, but it seems to actually have improved personal data protection.

It's not. For non-essential stuff you need permission from your user. So don't track and you don't need to show a cookie banner even if you use cookies.

You mean it's not a pain, or that it's not helpful?

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#125

Post by jimmydorry »

freeone3000 wrote: post #116
mike_d wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of a browsers revenue comes from advertising. Nobody pays $24.95 for a boxed copy of Netscape Navigator anymore. In negotiating an exclusive search advertising deal, not supporting FLoC will decrease the overall value of the browsers users to the ad network.

Brave runs their own ad network. So does Edge. Firefox makes their money through search engine placement and donations. I don't think these browsers being less valued on another company's ad network is actually a loss for them.

>Firefox makes their money through search engine placement and donations

I have to assume you wrote this in good faith, however, this is a circuitous way of describing how Mozilla / Firefox makes its money.

It comes directly from Google! One can easily imagine a future where Firefox must implement FLoC to continue receiving that money.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#126

Post by baud147258 »

Aachen wrote: post #101
type0 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correctemento, for non technical users Chrome is the window to the internet (it used to be Internet Explorer).

Why'd they go out and download another browser if they don't understand the concept of a browser? Only Android comes with the Google browser as default browser as far as I know. I think whatever the setupper of the computer dictates whatever Internet is, and secondarily the OS vendor if the new user doesn't have a tech friend. I don't think Chrome is somehow == Internet for these people specifically. (Personally I ca…

In addition to the various Google pages telling the user to install Chrome, it's also sometime bundled in the installer of other free (as in beer) software, with the default option installing chrome and setting it as default web browser.

And chrome OS come bundled with chrome too.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#127

Post by syrrim »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #28

"Please switch to a browser that supports FLoC to view this page." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "This website requires a browser that supports FLoC. Please install one of the folllowing compatible browsers: " [Links for Chrome, etc.] "We've detected you are using a browser that does not support FLoC. Please update your browser to use this website." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "Your browser is outdated! Please upgrade." [Links…

Could spoof it.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#128

Post by bosswipe »

galangalalgol wrote: post #49
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #28

"Please switch to a browser that supports FLoC to view this page." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "This website requires a browser that supports FLoC. Please install one of the folllowing compatible browsers: " [Links for Chrome, etc.] "We've detected you are using a browser that does not support FLoC. Please update your browser to use this website." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "Your browser is outdated! Please upgrade." [Links…

I'd love to ditch javascript entirely. Is there an android browser that supports that?

I use Firefox Android uTorrent's manual Javascript toggle (under "More"). I've found NoScript to be too much work but an easily accessible manual toggle works for me.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#129

Post by zamadatix »

pkaye wrote: post #57
zimbatm wrote: post #53

A better strategy would be to pretend to be in favor of FLoC until 3rd-party cookies are all eliminated. Since the FLoC ID is generated on the client side, it then becomes super easy to return fake ones to the website. :-D

You can already block third party cookies in Chrome (and probably other browsers.)

The problem with blanket disabling third party cookies as an individual user is some sites use them for non-tracking/advertising reasons and subsequently you find yourself wondering "why is this page not loading right" at inconvenient times like ordering food during a meeting only to realize it was trying to use 3rd party cookies to complete the ordering process.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#130

Post by echelon »

type0 wrote: post #88
nickysielicki wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't change the fact that if Google stopped selling their ads, Mozilla would have to stop paying their developers.

> Mozilla would have to stop paying their developers. Well they are almost there, wouldn't be surprised if there are no developers left pretty soon

Before Chrome ate up all the market share, this was never a problem.
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