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Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

theintercept.com

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Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#231

Post by sharikous »

philwelch wrote: post #121
HenryKissinger wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is truth in this comment. Parts of the Russian government have reverted to using mechanical typewriters in lieu of computers, which are too susceptible to malicious hacking. Also, the US Navy started instructing enlisted seamen how to navigate at sea by the stars, in case GPS stops working.

> Also, the US Navy started instructing enlisted seamen how to navigate at sea by the stars, in case GPS stops working. Is the threat model there that someone hacks the GPS signal, or that someone shoots down the GPS satellites? Lots of countries have ASATs these days.

Even an idiot can jam GPS. A little more sophisticated attack would be spoofing it, still doable (just a Google search away)

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#232

Post by CivBase »

whimsicalism wrote: post #133
jariel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 'hail of scuds' would be temporary and mild in comparison to a 'real' nuclear threat from Iran. Of course - nobody has any intention of actually dropping nukes on anyone. It's about power and leverage, and Iran's ability to project their dominance towards destabilizing and overthrowing House of Saud, and maybe disrupting/overthrowing Israel some day as well. Since House of Saud actually has nukes (they paid for Pak…

I think granting a "right of return" based on what ethnic group you happen to be a part of is bullshit and out of step with the modern world. Definitely would improve their international stature if they stopped occupying, but they are still a state organized around an ethnic group.

EDIT: Ignore this post. I misunderstood OP. The rest of this is just here to preserve what I originally wrote.

---

Serious question: at what point is it no longer rational to return land wrongfully taken? To displace millions of people and remove their right to self-govern? Practically every nation in existence came to be by taking land from someone at some point.

I agree that the "right of return" thing was BS. But it happened. I think the best course of action now is figure out how to move forward without wronging even more people.

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#233

Post by whimsicalism »

Protostome wrote: post #221
whimsicalism wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is a large nation of millions of people with a relatively developed government (even if we don't like the way it is currently structured). I doubt they would initiate a nuclear strike, knowing it means their annihilation. Also, most modern statements by Iran focus on the "Zionist regime", not the literal killing of the residents of Israel. You can find similar rhetoric in the United States about the CCP. > what…

>I doubt they would initiate a nuclear strike, knowing it means their annihilation. If someone with a gun holstered at their waist asked you to give you your money, would you refuse? If Iran will get access to nuclear weapons, it's status in international politics will change drastically, all leverages the west has on Iran (like the ability to impose sanctions upon human right violations and counter their violent exp…

Is that why we don't have the ability to impose sanctions on North Korea?

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#234

Post by whimsicalism »

CivBase wrote: post #232
whimsicalism wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think granting a "right of return" based on what ethnic group you happen to be a part of is bullshit and out of step with the modern world. Definitely would improve their international stature if they stopped occupying, but they are still a state organized around an ethnic group.

EDIT: Ignore this post. I misunderstood OP. The rest of this is just here to preserve what I originally wrote. --- Serious question: at what point is it no longer rational to return land wrongfully taken? To displace millions of people and remove their right to self-govern? Practically every nation in existence came to be by taking land from someone at some point. I agree that the "right of return" thing was BS. But…

Okay, but Israel still has a right of return. Should that right not be granted to displaced Palestinians? Laws making it more difficult for people of Arab descent to get citizenship were passed in 2003.

This is not about long-ago occurences, this is about active steps Israel is taking now to maintain their status as an ethnostate.

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#235

Post by sharikous »

whimsicalism wrote: post #164
mvzvm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is not governed by religious law, and has full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ. Its basis for most policy is a blend of social democracy and neoliberalism. Its military is purely defensive. I cannot say any of those things about Iran in good faith. Also, the what-about-ism is not a great defense of anything geopolitical btw.

Are ethnic minorities extended the "right of return" in Israel? Last I checked this was not the case.

What do you mean? Can a Senegalese become a citizen of the USA (or of almost any country on Earth) without a lengthy naturalization? If not, is the USA discriminatory.

Of course the right of return is just for Jews. Every country gets to set its own rules for citizenship. But Israeli citizens enjoy a reasonable democracy, with advanced civil rights, and respect human rights of others, too. Of course not at 100% but way better then all of their neighbors

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#236

Post by whimsicalism »

sharikous wrote: post #235
whimsicalism wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are ethnic minorities extended the "right of return" in Israel? Last I checked this was not the case.

What do you mean? Can a Senegalese become a citizen of the USA (or of almost any country on Earth) without a lengthy naturalization? If not, is the USA discriminatory. Of course the right of return is just for Jews. Every country gets to set its own rules for citizenship. But Israeli citizens enjoy a reasonable democracy, with advanced civil rights, and respect human rights of others, too. Of course not at 100% but w…

The United States doesn't grant you privileges for being a Christian or being white. The United States doesn't label itself as a "white country."

Israel grants privileges for being Jewish and denies citizenship if you are from Palestine.

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#237

Post by CivBase »

whimsicalism wrote: post #234
CivBase wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: Ignore this post. I misunderstood OP. The rest of this is just here to preserve what I originally wrote. --- Serious question: at what point is it no longer rational to return land wrongfully taken? To displace millions of people and remove their right to self-govern? Practically every nation in existence came to be by taking land from someone at some point. I agree that the "right of return" thing was BS. But…

Okay, but Israel still has a right of return. Should that right not be granted to displaced Palestinians? Laws making it more difficult for people of Arab descent to get citizenship were passed in 2003 . This is not about long-ago occurences, this is about active steps Israel is taking now to maintain their status as an ethnostate.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referencing.

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#238

Post by sharikous »

hoka-one-one wrote: post #61
mvzvm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is not governed by religious law, and has full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ. Its basis for most policy is a blend of social democracy and neoliberalism. Its military is purely defensive. I cannot say any of those things about Iran in good faith. Also, the what-about-ism is not a great defense of anything geopolitical btw.

What do you think would happen if the US and all of Europe completely pulled out of the Middle East? Would Israel stay the size it is now? If not, can you really say it's "purely defensive"?

If the US and Europe pulled out of the Middle East it would be too chaotic to predict anything. It depends on the presence of other superpowers (Russia, China) and the pecking order that would be established between the regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Iran, Egypt + the Sunni world).

Also, "pulling out" is too simplistic. There are not only troops on the ground, but also military bases, joint exercises, weapon sales, commercial ties, industrial ties, scientific collaborations, cultural influences, and so on and so forth. Short of disappearing from the globe the US cannot just 'pull out'

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#239

Post by hpcjoe »

cyberscientist wrote: post #222
hpcjoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"your own side" is quite revealing. There's a game siblings sometimes play. One hits another. The injured party responds in kind. The first, the aggressor, calls their parents and complains that the second hit the first and was the aggressor. The second is then punished by the parent for aggression. This has been the rhetorical, and effectively actual history of the conflicts since prior to the founding of Israel. Ir…

So Iran SAYS "Israel should be wiped out of the map", and that makes all ACTIONS (including boarder line terrorism) by Israel justified. Our way of buying into narratives and pushing them allows justifications for wars so easy. Just look at Iraq war. Narrative build and bought by us was that Sadam is bad and has bar weapons so let's go to war. Again I'm not defending Iran. In fact I really hate the regime. I'm just s…

As I noted, it's not what each say. It's what they do.

If you find yourself arguing against the entity that is the victim of the aggressor entity, I think you have some deep internal reflecting to do. Because such a position, is advocating against defending against actual attacks. Which the aggressor entity has done, in the open, through proxies, as well as in secret. Israel is not the aggressor entity.

If this is what you support, or cannot bring yourself to accept, and insist that this is "narrative" ...

Again, best thing to do is lots of internal reflection.

Re: Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power

#240

Post by fastball »

whimsicalism wrote: post #207
fastball wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jews attacking Muslims certainly predates Mandatory Palestine by thousands of years. Probably not, since Islam is not thousands of years old.

Thousand*, my fault for making it plural.

A mostly pointless nitpick on my part.

Regardless though, I'm not sure "Jews weren't being attacked because there weren't many Jews to attack" is much of an argument.

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