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China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

economist.com

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Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#281

Post by taylodl »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #166
thepasswordis wrote: post #71

It's because we stopped focusing on creating things, and instead started laser focusing on making sure that everybody gets exactly the same amount of everything all the time. It's ridiculous. We are trust fund children who don't understand where the money came from, and it will be our undoing. Twitter, NYT, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and the like have monetized dividing us, and they have a multi-billion dollar a year budge…

I disagree with some parts of this comment because I think it misunderstands that there are real, historical, unaddressed grievances commingled with an entitlement mindset. (The rich also have an entitlement mindset, as it turns out.) But the bit about schooling hit home for me. I'm supposedly in one of the most successful school districts of my city, but the stories I hear from parents ahead of me are disturbing. Th…

My advice? Ignore most things other parents say. My youngest graduated from high school last year. A public school. A sane school - though you'd never know it when listening to the other parents. Parents are nuts and you should take everything they say with a huge grain of salt. (Except me of course!)

On the college front things are a little different. My oldest two went to private, liberal arts schools majoring in mathematics and science. The SJWs make life irritating and the administrations kowtow to them a bit excessively but they still ended up getting a good education. My youngest is going to a public university - even though the nonsense is present, the student body and the administration largely ignore it except where there's a legitimate case (I know that's subjective, but what "most people" would consider to be a legitimate case). Most of our "culture wars" are made up by Fox News and CNN to give their talking heads something to blather on about. Hell, if we're all in agreement on most things - which we largely are - then why would you watch them? Their whole business model is making mountains out of molehills.

The funny thing is China believes it. You may recall Japan thought we were in decline, too.

Honestly, at no point in my life have a seen the future of the United States as being brighter than I see it now. Do we have problems? Absolutely! But we're doing a much better job not sweeping those problems under the carpet than we did in the past and that's the key to our getting those problems solved.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#282

Post by felle_realist »

pasquinelli wrote: post #237
felle_realist wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not "blame" the rise of identity politics on anyone, I merely point out that it has been taken up by many people who consider themselves to be "progressive" and that it, in combination with the adoption of critical theory - specifically the practice of "deconstruction" - leads to a witches brew of regressive and destructive ideologies.

yeah, but do material realities factor in at all, or do empires rise on fall on attitude alone?

That is a good question to which I do not have a sensible answer other than a vague "both, probably". I suspect empires follow more or less the same trajectory as many family fortunes do: the founders build a base upon which subsequent enterprising generations build an empire. Once the empire has been established and more and more generations grow up with the certainty of it being there decay sets in. Eventually the empire either falls prey to its neighbours, decays without outside intervention or enters a steady state. The steady state makes it vulnerable to new ideas which might not necessarily be better than current ones but at least they are new or progressive.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#283

Post by mcphage »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #251
SubiculumCode wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ridiculous. No dictator has walked all over the US in the last 4 years or ever. Anytime we failed diplomatically it occurred with the knowledge that our military dominance was insurmountable and complete, but that it's use indiscriminately would not serve our overall diplomatic strategic policy of caring about human rights, and self-imposed limits on how we use our military. Any of our failures in war against…

Military dominance is only insurmountable and complete when it's a credible threat, and ours hasn't actually won a war of note in over half a century. The best we've ever done in that timeframe has been to supplement military leadership that was already in place, and we've failed to even accomplish that half the time. The US military is a money pit.

> The US military is a money pit.

Yes, but it's a very visible money pit. Its purpose is to discourage any other country from throwing their own money into a similar pit by competing.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#284

Post by cameldrv »

BigW1lly wrote: post #227
ceilingcorner wrote: post #77

On an optimistic note, I am not convinced that China is going to win any cultural wars. America, for all its problems, still is essentially a leader for much of the developing world, at least in terms of culture. People watch American shows, know American celebrities, listen to American music, etc. This is facilitated by the fact that these cultural elements are pretty diverse and are open to immigrants. As in, a guy…

I'd say Korea is actually winning the cultural war. K-pop has taken the world by storm. Hollywood is in decline, if you'll notice, good movies are harder to come by nowadays.

Yes but a lot of the energy and talent that 20 years ago would have been making movies is now making TV series. Today is the golden age of TV like the 70s was for film.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#285

Post by mcphage »

fuckyouandyours wrote: post #74
j_walter wrote: post #35

They are probably not wrong. When you look at the infighting within the US that is front page news every day...the decline is in full swing. People care less about how to actually improve the country than they do about trying to hold entire professions accountable for the actions of a few (not just cops)...then we are focused on the wrong things. Spending hundreds of days protesting something instead of putting that…

> When you look at the infighting within the US that is front page news every day...the decline is in full swing. I don’t see how there’s any other option either. At this point there a multiple “factions” who’s end vision of society is actively hostile to certain other factions.

> At this point there a multiple “factions” who’s end vision of society is actively hostile to certain other factions.

Some time ago there was even an active shooting war between US factions, and yet the country still was ascendant afterwards.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#286

Post by satellite2 »

paulmd wrote: post #247
satellite2 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly democracy. Democracies that are actually constantly changing micro dictatures are failed democracies. It is perfectly reasonable to stop to discuss and aim for consensus when you are not able to reach an agreement. Otherwise each party just spends time and resources undoing what the other has done until then. Good democracies are actually those that go even further and try to incorporate the needs of…

I don't think anyone considers, let's say the UK or Canada as a "micro-dictatorship". The UK and other parliamentary systems have fewer checks and balances with a deliberate orientation to producing a government with a mandate to rule, for example the leader of the executive branch is always of the same party as the legislature. I think the US system is probably a de-optimization from that approach. This is just feti…

The US is stuck at the reaching a concensus step. The system blocks participants until they do which is not so bad unless the participants categorically refuse to collaborate. In which case you can have a government blocked for many yeas as happened in Belgium.

And it's definitely not at the step of listening to smaller interests with only two major opinions being represented.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#287

Post by satellite2 »

satellite2 wrote: post #286
paulmd wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone considers, let's say the UK or Canada as a "micro-dictatorship". The UK and other parliamentary systems have fewer checks and balances with a deliberate orientation to producing a government with a mandate to rule, for example the leader of the executive branch is always of the same party as the legislature. I think the US system is probably a de-optimization from that approach. This is just feti…

The US is stuck at the reaching a concensus step. The system blocks participants until they do which is not so bad unless the participants categorically refuse to collaborate. In which case you can have a government blocked for many yeas as happened in Belgium. And it's definitely not at the step of listening to smaller interests with only two major opinions being represented.

What might be lacking to accelerate the process a bit is a mechanism to eject participants that openly play to block the system.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#288

Post by tim333 »

BigW1lly wrote: post #138

Lenin was right. "Capitalists will sell to Communists the rope from which they will hang" That's exactly what is happening right now. USA outsourced much of its production to China (and elsewhere) and essentially handed over supply chain control to China. 80% of medical supplies are exported from China, along with rare earth metals, electronics, etc.

Googling indicates that he didn't actually say that and I'm not sure they hung many capitalists. There is speculation he was killed by his fellow communitsts though http://www.medicaldiscoverynews.com/shows/299-lenin.html

Re China I think sentiment may be turning a little.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#289

Post by satellite2 »

satellite2 wrote: post #287
satellite2 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is stuck at the reaching a concensus step. The system blocks participants until they do which is not so bad unless the participants categorically refuse to collaborate. In which case you can have a government blocked for many yeas as happened in Belgium. And it's definitely not at the step of listening to smaller interests with only two major opinions being represented.

What might be lacking to accelerate the process a bit is a mechanism to eject participants that openly play to block the system.

But that's if you consider that change is always good. Sometimes inertia can be the best move.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#290

Post by AnimalMuppet »

satellite2 wrote: post #287
satellite2 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is stuck at the reaching a concensus step. The system blocks participants until they do which is not so bad unless the participants categorically refuse to collaborate. In which case you can have a government blocked for many yeas as happened in Belgium. And it's definitely not at the step of listening to smaller interests with only two major opinions being represented.

What might be lacking to accelerate the process a bit is a mechanism to eject participants that openly play to block the system.

That will be abused by a slim majority to dominate a slim minority, by claiming that members of the slim minority are openly playing to block the system. At that point, you no longer have any requirement to reach a consensus - it's just "50% + 1 runs over 50% - 1".
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