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Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

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Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#61

Post by vbezhenar »

azangru wrote: post #60
vbezhenar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not, just like there's not any presumption that BBC reports about Russian forces are not lying. So one should weight all the information and choose which one to believe. I expressed my point of view which might be wrong. There's absolutely no reason right now for Russia to invade Ukraine. They had plenty of time before. They have to finish Nord Stream 2, so they absolutely don't want to impose any additional…

> US ... commanded Zelensky to start a war Do you think the US has such influence over _any_ country to command it to go to war with another country? > They have to finish Nord Stream 2, so they absolutely don't want to impose any additional sanctions on themselves. One would think so, yes; but on the other hand, hasn't Russia annoyed the Western world enough over the last 6-7 years, with Syria, Skripal, or Navalny,…

> Do you think the US has such influence over _any_ country to command it to go to war with another country?

They definitely have enough influence to suggest doing so. I remember Victorya Nuland openly supporting Ukraine revolution by physically being there, so obviously they supported them financially. And when US pays someone dollars, they expect something in return. Ukraine officials promised to their people that Ukraine will join NATO, so that's another leverage.

> One would think so, yes; but on the other hand, hasn't Russia annoyed the Western world enough over the last 6-7 years, with Syria, Skripal, or Navalny, despite its obvious need to finish Nord Stream?

I don't fully trust Skripal and Navalny stories, so that's more of western propaganda trying to paint Russia's black from my PoV. Not sure about Syria, probably there were enough geopolitical reasons for that.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#62

Post by azangru »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #54

Mr Kuleba recalled that in 2014 there was a Russian plan to split Ukraine and create an entity called "Novorossiya" (New Russia) - a plan foiled by Ukraine's armed forces. Not commenting on Russia vs. Ukraine here, but I wanted to point out this somewhat misleading line. Novorossiya is the name of that historical region going back to the 1700s. The way it's written by the BBC, it sounds like Russia is just inventing…

I don't think it is misleading. Novorossiya, as Wikipedia points out, is a historical term. It does not exist on political maps. The phrasing is the same as if someone wanted to carve out a chunk of Germany and call it Prussia.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#63

Post by ceilingcorner »

azangru wrote: post #62
ceilingcorner wrote: post #54

Mr Kuleba recalled that in 2014 there was a Russian plan to split Ukraine and create an entity called "Novorossiya" (New Russia) - a plan foiled by Ukraine's armed forces. Not commenting on Russia vs. Ukraine here, but I wanted to point out this somewhat misleading line. Novorossiya is the name of that historical region going back to the 1700s. The way it's written by the BBC, it sounds like Russia is just inventing…

I don't think it is misleading. Novorossiya, as Wikipedia points out, is a historical term. It does not exist on political maps. The phrasing is the same as if someone wanted to carve out a chunk of Germany and call it Prussia.

Yes, it's misleading because it ignores the revanchist reasoning of Russia in favor of simple "Russia bad, Russia invader, Russia imperialist" narratives.

Novorossiya was historically a part of the Russian Empire for a very long time. Russia clearly wants it back. Whether they are justified in getting it or not, I have no comment. But the least we can do is actually understand their reasoning.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#64

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

anoonmoose wrote: post #30
ivanivanovich wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the people of Crimea want to be in Russia or the Ukraine?

Does "what the people of Crimea wanted" change whether or not Russia annexed the territory against the wishes of the current owners of the territory and against international law that Russia claims to respect?

It suggests that Russia isn't planning to annex "every free person in the world" as the parent comment suggested. They're taking blatant, aggressive advantage of the Ukrainian Revolution to expand their power and influence, and that's undoubtedly a bad thing to do, but I don't think it indicates any substantial risk to other countries in the region.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#65

Post by willeh »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #63
azangru wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is misleading. Novorossiya, as Wikipedia points out, is a historical term. It does not exist on political maps. The phrasing is the same as if someone wanted to carve out a chunk of Germany and call it Prussia.

Yes, it's misleading because it ignores the revanchist reasoning of Russia in favor of simple "Russia bad, Russia invader, Russia imperialist" narratives. Novorossiya was historically a part of the Russian Empire for a very long time. Russia clearly wants it back. Whether they are justified in getting it or not, I have no comment. But the least we can do is actually understand their reasoning.

And India was part of the British empire, Mexico (then called the viceroyalty of New Spain) a part of Spain and the list goes on. Might makes right belongs to a bygone age and people are entitled to self-determination.

To decline to stand up to dictator - nay, a tyrant - such as Putin makes one a coward undeserving of the liberties they were born with.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#66

Post by Glavnokoman »

azangru wrote: post #62
ceilingcorner wrote: post #54

Mr Kuleba recalled that in 2014 there was a Russian plan to split Ukraine and create an entity called "Novorossiya" (New Russia) - a plan foiled by Ukraine's armed forces. Not commenting on Russia vs. Ukraine here, but I wanted to point out this somewhat misleading line. Novorossiya is the name of that historical region going back to the 1700s. The way it's written by the BBC, it sounds like Russia is just inventing…

I don't think it is misleading. Novorossiya, as Wikipedia points out, is a historical term. It does not exist on political maps. The phrasing is the same as if someone wanted to carve out a chunk of Germany and call it Prussia.

And this is exactly how Ukraine came to life in 1991.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#67

Post by ceilingcorner »

willeh wrote: post #65
ceilingcorner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's misleading because it ignores the revanchist reasoning of Russia in favor of simple "Russia bad, Russia invader, Russia imperialist" narratives. Novorossiya was historically a part of the Russian Empire for a very long time. Russia clearly wants it back. Whether they are justified in getting it or not, I have no comment. But the least we can do is actually understand their reasoning.

And India was part of the British empire, Mexico (then called the viceroyalty of New Spain) a part of Spain and the list goes on. Might makes right belongs to a bygone age and people are entitled to self-determination. To decline to stand up to dictator - nay, a tyrant - such as Putin makes one a coward undeserving of the liberties they were born with.

These are not really good examples. India, Mexico, etc. were different cultures with thousands of years of history as independent entities. Novorossiya and indeed large parts of the current political state of Ukraine were a part of "Russia" for hundreds of years. Ukraine itself didn't really exist as a unified state from the end of the Kievan Rus (13th century) until the 20th century and was mostly a battleground between Poland, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire.

Like I said, it's complicated. Does that justify Russia's actions? I don't know and I am deliberately explaining this in a neutral way.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#68

Post by azangru »

vbezhenar wrote: post #61
azangru wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US ... commanded Zelensky to start a war Do you think the US has such influence over _any_ country to command it to go to war with another country? > They have to finish Nord Stream 2, so they absolutely don't want to impose any additional sanctions on themselves. One would think so, yes; but on the other hand, hasn't Russia annoyed the Western world enough over the last 6-7 years, with Syria, Skripal, or Navalny,…

> Do you think the US has such influence over _any_ country to command it to go to war with another country? They definitely have enough influence to suggest doing so. I remember Victorya Nuland openly supporting Ukraine revolution by physically being there, so obviously they supported them financially. And when US pays someone dollars, they expect something in return. Ukraine officials promised to their people that…

> I remember Victorya Nuland openly supporting Ukraine revolution by physically being there, so obviously they supported them financially

Oh yes. There's no doubt the US is supporting Ukraine, at least militarily. They make no secret of it. But it's one thing to ask for, say, access to trade or to natural resources in return, and it's quite another to demand that receiving party commit to something that can potentially turn into a suicide.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#69

Post by throwawayay02 »

kvgr wrote: post #52
throwawayay02 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is managed by Russia so it is Russia, now. The same way Ireland one day was administered from London and now is not (excl. Northern Ireland). The rest is emotional talk.

The difference is that the while world on the fact that Ireland is self governed. Almost no one agrees that Criema is Russian.

I don't think that is true. I think most people would agree the people in Crimea understand they speak Russian, have a Russian passport, can travel inside Russia, pay taxes to the Russian government, their children are schooled in Russian topics. Culturally the majority probably feel quite Russian, or as Russian as any other "republic" of the Russian "federation".

There are countries with less cultural and linguistic similarity, for instance Catalonia comes to mind, yet there is also the general agreement that Catalonia is part of Spain and not fully self governed, much less governed by any other country.

Re: Is Russia going to war with Ukraine and other questions

#70

Post by drran »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #54

Mr Kuleba recalled that in 2014 there was a Russian plan to split Ukraine and create an entity called "Novorossiya" (New Russia) - a plan foiled by Ukraine's armed forces. Not commenting on Russia vs. Ukraine here, but I wanted to point out this somewhat misleading line. Novorossiya is the name of that historical region going back to the 1700s. The way it's written by the BBC, it sounds like Russia is just inventing…

Russia is the name of the historical region too, now called Ukraine. Should Ukraine(historical Russia) annex Russian Federation, because it's Russian?
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