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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any adult who rapes a 13 year old is abhorrent. It's not even a debate. [Edit] Absolutely disgusting that this would be downvoted. This community really showed itself for what it is today. Thankfully, the rest of our industry has enough of a moral compass to reject this, so both FSF and Stallman are dead in the water.

Let's talk about numbers: - In 2019, the rate of forcible rapes in the United States stood at 29.9 per 100,000 inhabitants. it has decreased from 1990, when there were 41.2 forcible rapes per 100,000 inhabitants. - In 2014, rape rate for Japan was 1 cases per 100,000 population. Rape rate of Japan fell gradually from 1.6 cases per 100,000 population in 2005 to 1 cases per 100,000 population in 2014 What lesson can we…

I'll offer an answer which will not satifty you nor solosoyokaze. But first, you should understand that long before these events, RMS already had a proven track record on inclusiveness, gender equality and anything his opponents have him accused of.

So what lesson can we learn? that some sexual encounters in Japan that should be considered rape, aren't.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#522
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...right, but you can't look at someone and based on looks end up thinking, "That person is a victim of human trafficking!" in the same way you might look at someone and think, "That person might be younger than 18 [or whatever the local law says]!". It might be possible to blame Minsky for the second thing, but the first seems completely crazy to me.

Um, what? I must be misunderstanding you because rape isn't OK just because the perpetrator has plausible deniability about whether it was intentional. Doubly so when there is a strong case he knew or should have known something something was wrong.

Yeah, I think there's a misunderstanding. Basically, there is no possible way to know by looking at 17-y-o girl at some island party that she has been "sex trafficked". But there is a reason to suspect that a 17-y-o girl is less than 18 by looking...she looks about 17. So it makes sense to consider blaming Minsky for failing on the second thing, but to consider blaming him for the sex trafficking aspect doesn't make any sense at all. Edit: and I should be fair to Minsky's memory, there is no evidence he had sex with the 17-y-o, and significant evidence that he did not.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think that lumping forcible rape in the same category as a 17 year old successfuly seducing a 21 year old in California (as opposed to, say, Spain) is bad for discourse. Even if we grant the latter is harmful and wrong, the mechanism via which the harm happens is different, as is the amount of harm.

>a 17 year old successfuly seducing a 21 year old Most countries have laws allowing relationships within an age difference of 3 or 4 or 5 years. But some people want to blur the lines around consent claiming that a 15yo can consent to sex with some 45yo without the latter being held responsible. > the mechanism via which the harm happens is different, as is the amount of harm I never argued otherwise. Just like for a…

> But this does not change the initial point about informed consent and rape being rape.

I think it does. "Rape being rape" relies on the word having a precise meaning where all things in the category share essential characteristics that allow you to make moral judgements based on category membership.

But "rape", like all heavily contested political words with high moral weight, is definitely not such a word. It has a canonical example value (unfortunately I feel I have to be specific here: a stranger dragging a fighting women into the bushes and sticking his penis in her until he cums), but has a range of meanings that varies fairly drastically across conversational contexts (e.g. we talking ethics/morality? Law? Descriptiveness?), geography (e.g. is drunk sex rape? Depends on jurisdiction. What counts as a "minor"?), time and even subcultures.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This appears to be about events that are at least 15 years old, if not older? Does sound like a pretty terrible manager. An unpaid volunteer position on the board doesn’t really seem like the position where these problems would happen again. And they weren’t the reason he got in hot water - that was all related to a media firestorm over Minsky/Epstein.

> This appears to be about events that are at least 15 years old, if not older? What would you consider an appropriate statute of limitations here?

Statute of limitations is a concept of criminal law, since none of the described actions are criminal it wouldn’t apply directly.

I do find it questionable to dig up decades old actions that were apparently dealt with at the time by appropriately unionizing and fixing the situation, and say that means a person should never have even a volunteer job again.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All submissions compete for attention. Voting and commenting influence what submissions other people see too.

I know but from my observations all the up-votes and comments can't undo a few flags. Maybe there should be a way so if same number of people contest the flags then it undoes it? At least I think is not fair to use flag on an item I think it should get less attention, then I should flag all posts about the frameworks or languages that I think are getting too much attention (I do not flag and very rare downvote )

You haven't been to DeviantArt, have you.

There, "rageflagging" (flagging because you do not like what is being said, not because it violates some content policy) is fairly common. I don't know why it wouldn't be here on Hackernews, despite the latter's pretense to "quality discussion".

The difference is, at least on DeviantArt the staff intervene when there's a flag, and politely tell the flagger to block the person if they don't like what they have to say. Flagging on HN seems automated and algorithm-driven, which makes it abuse-prone.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He even continues to defend Minsky in this letter. It's not even an apology, it's just more of the same.

I'm very unclear on what general priciple you think RMS is violating with the Minsky comments. Is it that you should never defend someone accused of Bad Thing if you are a public figure ij channels that may be related to your work?

> Is it that you should never defend someone accused of Bad Thing if you are a public figure ij channels that may be related to your work?

That's a part of it (aside from general moral disgust). How does RMS defending an Epstein client help FOSS? It does not, and it detracts enormously.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's talk about numbers: - In 2019, the rate of forcible rapes in the United States stood at 29.9 per 100,000 inhabitants. it has decreased from 1990, when there were 41.2 forcible rapes per 100,000 inhabitants. - In 2014, rape rate for Japan was 1 cases per 100,000 population. Rape rate of Japan fell gradually from 1.6 cases per 100,000 population in 2005 to 1 cases per 100,000 population in 2014 What lesson can we…

I'll offer an answer which will not satifty you nor solosoyokaze. But first, you should understand that long before these events, RMS already had a proven track record on inclusiveness, gender equality and anything his opponents have him accused of. So what lesson can we learn? that some sexual encounters in Japan that should be considered rape, aren't.

> So what lesson can we learn? that some sexual encounters in Japan that should be considered rape, aren't.

That could be true.

But 30 times less is hard to explain with that.

Remember that he majority of rapes are perpetrated against adult women and Japan is the country with the oldest population in the World, right before Italy.

I guess that living in a society where crime rates are generally low (Japan has one of the lowest rate in the World) helps a lot.

In Japan half of the people are not having sex, that makes it one of the countries with the lowest rate, hardly a country of rapers.

So what lesson can we learn?

That violence is key to injustice

The whole discussion about diversity and inclusivity in the States revolves around self segregation and punishment for those who do not abide, it is based on fear of the consequences not on a general understanding that conflict is an integral part of the society and inclusivity means to accept it, not to remove it.

Stallman is a non violent man, he doesn't adhere to the American standards, he's a weirdo, but never harmed anybody nor committed violent acts, let alone crimes.

I write an email to his address from time to time, have been doing it for the past 10 years, and I always receive the most polite replies (days later of course, he reads them offline).

Sometimes it's like talking to Sherlock Holmes, he's very logical, has strong opinions, lingers on the most miniscule detail and that can be unpleasant to some.

He can be confrontational, but not dangerous.

I would rather share the proverbial desert island with him than with those who attack him for not being "standard compliant"

I know I shouldn't have to feel frightened by him.

Maybe we could learn a thing or two from him, once we go past the preposterous social indignation à la carte because he likes to walk barefoot.

p.s. In Sweden age of consent is 15 years and sexual assault (so not rape specifically) reports are very high, but under the Swedish laws half of the planet would be in prison (in Sweden not using a condom is considered rape).

Eurostat figures show that Sweden had 64 reported rapes per 100,000 residents in 2016, compared to 10 in Germany. When Sweden's figures were recalculated using the German definitions, the new figure was 15 reported rapes per 100,000 residents.

p.p.s. if in Japan they are "hiding" the real rape numbers, what makes you think the same thing is not happening elsewhere?

USA laws about rape are not stronger than those in Germany, that has a third of the rapes of US and where age of consent is 14.

What's the difference then?

In Germany violent crimes in general are a lot less than in USA.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#528
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But agnostic to this specific situation, you would acknowledge that there could be a situation in which the people kept away are morally confused to the point in which it's actually better to do without them from a moral (and long-term business) perspective. "Having a CEO in favor of Data Privacy/Product Safety/Responsible Bank Lending will lead to thousands of potential employees avoiding our company!" I'm sure you'…

You're being intentionally reductive by pivoting to "popularity" when we're talking about someone who has a history of sexual misconduct, highly inappropriate behavior and outright abuse. Women don't avoid RMS because they think he's a bit of a prick. Women avoid RMS because he's making them feel unsafe. And this comes on top of him being a massive prick to people in general. Also not actively alienating people who w…

Then why invoke the "hundreds or thousands" point at all?

Seems irrelevant and sort of crass given the gravity of the other qualms you have.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#529
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On technical matters, you are correct; on moral matters it's a different story. They are intertwined. His moral positions have done incredible damage to GCC at a technical level, and lost huge amounts of marketshare to LLVM as a direct result. (Stallman thought that making the compiler more modular and extensible was totally unacceptable because it might be possible in theory to write proprietary tools that used GCC…

> His moral positions have done incredible damage to GCC at a technical level, and lost huge amounts of marketshare to LLVM as a direct result. We can take this as a given for the purposes of the discussion. > They are intertwined But which has priority? The main issue with this topic is that it's sometimes hard to see things from an angle we're so unaccustomed to. The FSF and the GNU project are accidentally technic…

From a recent LWN article about a week ago.

> It restarted, however, when Poimboeuf came back a few days later with another idea for solving his problem: recompiling all plugins when the GCC version changes. This was refused by Yamada, who noted that Ubuntu does not have the GCC mismatch problem, so the problem seemed to be specific to Fedora. Linus Torvalds also disagreed with the proposal, but for another reason. For him there is no technical reason to recompile everything when the GCC version changes, but he expressed his concern on the usage and design of the GCC plugins in general. In a followup message he explained his reasoning in strong words:

>> The kernel gcc plugins _will_ go away eventually. They are an unmitigated disaster. They always have been. I'm sorry I ever merged that support. It's not only a maintenance nightmare, it's just a horrible thing and interface in the first place. It's literally BAD TECHNOLOGY.

> For Torvalds, the right way to implement such plugins is at the intermediate representation (IR) level, but GCC plugins were designed differently for non-technical reasons (out of fear for non-free plugins, which LWN covered back in 2008). People who are interested in plugins should use Clang, as it has a clean IR and easily allows adding similar checks at the IR level, he said.

So here we have Torvalds himself annoyed at GCC's ridiculous plugin architecture.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#530
post #504
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was 18 years ago, he changed[0] his views later, but nobody mentions that for some reason... [0] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...

Since a lot of people will read this page, but won't follow the link, I'm posting RMS' quote from your link: > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults s…

I’m actually against “cancel culture”. However, when children are involved, such disgusting comments don’t get a pass. Ever.

Just because He is on the spectrum doesn’t give him some pass to justify the rape of children. I will never forgive that.

If He is so addled with disability that He can’t understand why what He is saying is beyond the pale, why doesn’t He just shut the fuck up?

His words indirectly and perhaps directly promoted the harm of innocent children. It certainly did nothing to protect them.

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