Earlier quoted context omitted.
A better URL to look at is https://github.com/enterprises/amazon .
That is a 404, so not better.
Possibly my bad, it may require being a member of one of the orgs.
OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
321–330 of 438 posts
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t see this as abuse, but rather an easily contemplated and straightforward use of the license.
What's straightforward about forking an open source project to get more money?
The license is not complex, but maybe the Wikipedia summary explanation of the license will help explain how it’s straightforward?
> The Apache License is a permissive free software license written by the Apache Software Foundation(ASF).[6] It allows users to use the software for any purpose, to distribute it, to modify it, and to distribute modified versions of the software under the terms of the license, without concern for royalties
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think it's the freedom to run it anywhere. It's the freedom to run it anywhere and make changes to it that you don't contribute back : 1. Amazon wants to make private changes to the management layer for their cloud offering and not share those. 2. ES doesn't want that, so the 7.11+ license restricts it. 3. Amazon doesn't want to have to explain to their customers why their ES offering is stuck on v7.10, so th…
The SSPL directly prohibits offering the software as a service without releasing the source code of your entire operation regardless of if you change it or not: > If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge... > “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Sour…
Great point. SSPL is basically the open source equivalent of “we had to destroy the village in order to save it.” In order to protect their IP from being “taken away” because of their original licensing decision, they basically chose a new license that’s effectively no longer open source (although it is “source available”).
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#324It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…
When a product that was previously Open Source changes to a non-open license, it's not uncommon for someone to pick up the last Open Source version and fork it, and release that for others to use and collaborate on. That's always going to be a good thing; that means people who care about Open Source licensing continue to have a version to use and collaborate on.
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's straightforward about forking an open source project to get more money?
The license is not complex, but maybe the Wikipedia summary explanation of the license will help explain how it’s straightforward? > The Apache License is a permissive free software license written by the Apache Software Foundation(ASF).[6] It allows users to use the software for any purpose, to distribute it, to modify it, and to distribute modified versions of the software under the terms of the license, without co…
Well, I thought you are following the discussion here.
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it really price gouging for bandwidth? Or is bandwidth just really expensive in general? I honestly don't know. I would assume if it was actually much cheaper one of the cloud's would undercut the other to get customers.
It's absolutely price gouging. I'm not going to rant about this for the 100th time, but at least I'm in good company [0]. Do the math on the cost you pay if you saturate 1gbps for a month vs. the cost you pay for 1gbps IP transit at basically any colocation provider. Really this is the secret sauce of the cloud. Create new abstraction layers where you can charge for logical separation on a physical basis. First VMs,…
You're free to go build your own cloud and sell it for cheaper. I'll wait.
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
The value in the market is the subject of the parent thread. Anyways, like I said, Elastic could've made money with a proprietary product but they chose OSS instead (and used Apache Lucene to build on). AWS is just offering customers what they want and there are many other companies doing the same thing (IBM's Compose, Aiven, Instaclustr, etc). How is this against OSS? This is the OSS industry operating as intended.
Mentioning lucene raises an interesting question... what if lucene adopted the SSPL license that Elastic is for their own product... could Elastic's own business model actually survive that?
Elastic contributed to Lucene. (They have committers as PMCs.)
If Lucene had adopted SSPL they would have been forced to fork. But basically nothing really interesting happens at the Lucene level for ES anymore. (Sure, there's always a lot to speed up, optimize, etc. But anyone who buys ES needs the fancy stuff, security/audit/management, not a few percent more RAM efficiency.)
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#328One of the more discouraging aspects of being an OSS developer is that successful companies that use your software never consider contributing to the OSS developers. I suppose that is the nature of business though. Take what you can get.
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is incorrect, you are free to use the program if you wish, it just also, like the GPL, conveys requirements on open sourcing code you use with it. Open sourcing services without the necessary tools to run it isn't much good, so SSPL ensures the freedom to run your own better than GPL based licenses.
no. get it right. if you are not free to run the program without additional stipulations, especially stipulations that dictate how you license _your_ code, then you are not free to use the program as you wish. Literally, "as you wish". Stipulations is "as we wish". And you can read it from the OSI themselves: "The SSPL is Not an Open Source License" https://opensource.org/node/1099
The SSPL conveys no new stipulations not permitted by GPL-based licenses, it is just more inclusive in doing so.
If SSPL isn't open source, neither is the GPL.
Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana
#330It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…
> they can invest more resources into developing it than the original team ever could. I know this is a popular narrative, but as someone who works on AWS, I think you would be shocked by how small the individual dev teams are that build and maintain the services that everyone uses. I'm not going to downplay the network effects involved. Of course AWS has a tremendous advantage in being able to standardize the custom…
I was nodding along until this:
> and THEN we think about how do we make money from it
Do you really need to think? Looking at the on-demand pricing in US East, a m5.4xlarge.elasticsearch instance costs $1.133 an hour, while a m5.4xlarge instance costs $0.768 an hour. That's 47.53% of extra money. And like you said, it only requires a small team to build and maintain the service.
It is no coincidence that all cloud providers are trying to ramp up their hosted services for open source software, even GCP, who historically only focused on their own proprietary stack. There's a lot of money to be made.