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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you've been as close to rms as the people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately, whatever silly argument you are trying to make doesn't have a leg to stand on.

> people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell[1]. Bushnell is currently a friar in a religious order and works for google, and there is nothing wrong with that[2] . I can easily work with devout religious people and respect and accept them for their superior knowledge of the…

> Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell

It doesn't have to be. I've known over a dozen people working at the FSF over the years, and they _all_ had the same stories about trying to avoid RMS as much as physically possible because of his behavior and how he treated people. At some point we have to stop looking for excuses and start listening to the people who are actually there.

> First it was the Epstein connection

Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#402

I'm gonna drop this again where ACLU's former president Nadine Strossen shares her view which is more sophisticated and thought through than mine is anyways - https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

Leah Rowe's article might also be of interest: https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has given paid talks for the last decade or two I believe. Considering he was sleeping on a mattress in a MIT office, hopefully he saved a good portion of that in a bank account. He will also be eligible for social security and Medicare at his age, assuming he had enough working years in the social security system to qualify.

It's kind of sad given that probably all the FAANG companies wouldn't exist (yet) if it wasn't for his work.

You make it sound like only RMS' contributions were significant for our current state of software.

There are a lot of people with significant contributions without which the world wouldn't be in its current state.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#404
post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

I wonder if it's feasible to create some kind of database of reporters and their reliability - 'John doe has written n articles that turned out to be fundamentally wrong', Jane doe has written m articles that were fundamentally wrong'.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#405
post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

Neither of those things will happen. We would be better off if we could remove those dishonest people from our communities here and elsewhere. Dishonest reporting, and amplifying of dishonest posts on social media is not something you will ever get an apology for, because those efforts were never meant to survive scrutiny. They were meant to create "pressure" to cause reputational damage. You cannot convince or engag…

>This is one of the reasons I believe social media sites should enact age-based voting. Such that older accounts that have withstood the reputational scrutiny, have greater influence.

Then those accounts just become hot commodities, or you front load a bunch of accurate reporting about banal stuff and bank that credibility for when you want to go fangs out.

Think about it, that's how we've gotten into the "post-trust" situation we're in now. Age does not against bullshittery confer protection. No technical measure will. No edifice is permanent except that in the churn, some people with standards will rise in spite of it all. They'll get torn at at every opportunity, but it's also why critical thinking is everyone's job. You can't delegate it. Nobody can be a habitual follower by default. You have to check.

So many firms exist with the sole purpose of perception/crisis management simply because it is so powerful a tool. No one can protect you from having to think and come to your own conclusions. I thought differently for years. That the media could be trusted for having skin in the game, and dedication to the ideals and tenets of their profession.

Then I learned about how crushlingly pragmatic the world is. Either you acknowledge it, and plot your way around it, or you get run over by it.

I leave with a few quotes and a rather notorious person who rammed home an illustration of this point.

>In this and like communities, public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail; without it, nothing can succeed. Consequently he who moulds public sentiment, goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or pronounces decisions. He makes statutes and decisions possible or impossible to be executed.

-Abraham Lincoln, Ottawa, Illinois, August 21, 1858, Debate with Stephen Douglas

>Whatever is right can be achieved through the irresistible power of awakened and informed public opinion. Our object, therefore, is not to inquire whether a thing can be done, but whether it ought to be done, and if it ought to be done, to so exert the forces of publicity that public opinion will compel it to be done.

-William Randolph Hearst, unpublished editorial memorandum, date unknown

>"You furnish the pictures, and I will furnish the war." - also William Randolph Hearst

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/173692

Make no mistake. The Fifth Estate is a pseudo-Governmental entity for a reason, and as a citizen, demands due diligence before letting one's sense of the world get run away with.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _other_times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia...". He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. He applies normative principles to it and can't see why it's wrong (e.g., age of consent varies...why would…

> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. Great, it's an interesting philosophical question. If the issue is so important to him, he should transition to a career in philosophy, or sociology, or anthropology. However, as a board member of the FSF, a public-facing leadership role, his job is to promote free software and nothing but free software. He shouldn't muddle tha…

> Great, it's an interesting philosophical question. If the issue is so important to him, he should transition to a career in philosophy, or sociology, or anthropology.

By that logic, a person without primary job in social study can criticise him for his social behaviour. People are more than just what they work on and everyone has ideas to themselves how society should be including me, you and him and sometimes like to tell the world about this. I generally tend to ignore that, e.g. when a programmer tells how bad trump is or what should be the age for consent in this case. But this doesn't mean there should be anything bad in expressing social opinion publicly.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#407
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have come across as being insensitive, but what he wrote in that email wasn't technically wrong.

Being correct is entirely orthogonal to being appropriate.

Appropriate or not, it was the truth, and whether people feel like hearing it or not, the truth is always justified in standing up for.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#408
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for clarifying. I can see your reasoning now, taking a more practical approach, let me try to restate: by taking such an idealogical stance, the FSF lost what was a large base that existed for them previously? I understand that, but think there are lots of idealogical reasons why that kind of argument doesn't hold much sway with entities like the FSF and FOSS proponents. v2 had some very obvious issues, and…

If you take the assumption that the user device is actively user-hostile, there's a simpler approach: just add another microchip whose purpose is to run non-free code (or at least non-GPLv3 code) to report on what you're doing. You might not get the world's best networking stack by constraining yourself to non-GPL, but you can certainly get something that's enough to spy on the user. (Or, frankly, given the state of…

I don't have the time right now to respond, but I appreciate the depth of your response and you have given me a lot to think about. Cheers.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is 100% idiology. I think pushing the idea that sex with minors is ok, is morally wrong. I think defending those who victimize others is morally wrong. I think victimizing students that you have influence over with poorly thought out advances is morally wrong. This is my moral opinion on the subject. Infinitely subjective.

You think and you act by taking part in the cancellation game where you got nothing to lose and only to win by pushing others down. How about we judge a person by the totality of his work and actions, not just those which play well in the "game"?

Some people deserve to be canceled. Just because I don’t think most people should be “canceled” doesn’t mean I think nobody should be.

RMS is a monster.

From the horses mouth: "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing."

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. Wasn't the entire point of his post to refute this interpretation of what happened? Does no one else notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

The person you are responding to is probably not strictly talking about the Minsky/Epstein stuff but adding in Stallman's other statements. "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing."

Correct. Sorry you’re getting downvoted for something I should have made more clear.
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